Major Lindsay and Africa presents bouncing back conversations about resilience for lawyers >> Rebecca Glatzer: Major Lindsay and Africa presents bouncing back conversations about resilience for lawyers. Welcome to bouncing back resilience for lawyers. This podcast is brought to you by Major Lindsay and Africa, the global leader in legal search and consulting. I'm your host, Rebecca Glatzer. I am a partner in the associate practice group at Major Lindsay in Africa. In this podcast, I speak to successful professionals about the hiccups, bumps, bruises, and setbacks they've experienced in their careers and personal lives and how they ultimately bounce back from those experiences to thrive. Fitz Reed is general counsel and chief compliance officer at Hunterbrook Today, my guest is Fitz Reed. Fitz is general counsel and chief compliance officer at Hunterbrook. Fitz joined Hunterbrook from engine number one, the activist investment fund where she was the chief compliance officer and deputy general counsel. Previously, she spent seven years at the securities and Exchange Commission, where she served across the examinations and enforcement divisions before becoming senior counsel to commissioner Allison Lee. Her work spanned rulemaking, enforcement, litigation, whistleblowers, and on site examinations of registrants, including broker dealers, investment advisors, private fund advisors, and mutual funds. Fitz has a BBA from Pace University, an MBA from Wharton at, Upenn, and a JD from Washington University School of Law in St. Louis, where she later taught federal regulations and enforcement as an adjunct professor. Fitz is on the board of directors for the National LGBTQ Bar association. She has previously held a series seven license with FINRA and is currently registered with the state bar in DC and New York. She is a co founder and partner of Catoga Sports Group and, Sports Investment Fund. Fitz is based in Oakland, California. Fitz, thank you for being my guest here today. >> Fitz Reed: Thank you for having me. Tell us about your career path and how you made your way to SEC >> Rebecca Glatzer: So, for many of our listeners, going in house and being a GC of a company is kind of like the brass ring, in their careers. It's something that many of them are vying for. Share a little bit about your career path and how you made your way to your current role. >> Fitz Reed: Yeah, it's not a straight path for me. It definitely took some, you know, detours along the way. So, you know, I'm. I'm of jamaican descent. My parents are jamaican immigrants, moved to New York, where I was raised, and actually didn't think about law school, for many years, I actually thought I would go into politics. I, worked for Hillary Clinton when she was senator of New York as an intern, and stayed with her for a little bit after graduation from undergrad. And I just met so many great lawyers, whether they were practicing or not as part of, working in the government. And it was really inspirational to see the various ways in which you could use your law degree. But I actually really enjoyed politics. But there came a point where I had to make a decision on what I wanted to do next. And inspired by the folks that I met, in the government, I decided to go to law school. And I started at law school thinking that I would, go into public interest, somehow make my way back into the government some way, go be a public defender. Lots, of thoughts and giving back and seeing how I can make a difference. but I graduated undergrad with a degree in business, and I've always had an affinity for numbers. I was just always very good at understanding finance. It just came natural to me. And some of those courses in law school that folks avoided, I was drawn to. When it came to business and finance, I didn't quite know where that would lead me, but I decided to, I found my way at the intersection of law and finance, quite often, thinking about going in house, thinking about working for a financial regulator. those are things that started to come my way. And so after law school, instead of going, to a law firm, instead of kind of taking a traditional path that most folks take, after law school, I decided to go work for a judge, clerked for a judge for a year, and then I went in house at Wells Fargo. I often get asked, how did I get an in house job right out of law school? And I would just say, it's a bit of luck and a bit of just persistence. I spent, a lot of time starting in law school, even before I graduated, just networking with people, meeting as many, general counsels and deputy general counsel and chief compliance officers that I could meet, so that by the time that I graduated, I had built this incredible network of folks, and I was deliberate about keeping in touch with them, throughout my law school experience. And then when I graduated, I reached out to those folks and said, hey, I don't want to go to a law firm. I think I'm better suited for in house. And somebody picked up my resume and said, I'll forward it on. And it was that kind of spark that helped me to get my foot in the door, and that's all I needed. and so I started my career, my legal career at Wells Fargo, working in compliance, working on regulatory compliance. I had a lot of exposure to the SEC, which was fantastic. Ah, so I took that experience and ended up going to the SEC, where I spent the bulk of my career, working in the government was by far one of my best jobs I've ever had just the people you meet, and the passion for the work is unparalleled. So, you know, I spent seven years at the SEC prosecuting and investigating financial, crimes of all sorts. It was a very fulfilling job. Didn't pay very well, but it was very fulfilling. You know, you go into public interest because you care about the work. >> Rebecca Glatzer: right. >> Fitz Reed: And so I had a passion for that. And then from the SEC, there, comes a time when you work in the government where you have to make a decision about, you know, will you stay in the government, or do you want to try something different? after seven years in the government, I had worked in so many different levels at the SEC, from, examination. So going out to registered entities and knocking on doors and asking questions and making sure, these were legitimate businesses to, enforcement prosecuting cases, to working for one of the commissioners, on the policy side. So, just so many different levels where I had experience at the SEC, I thought it would be time for me to take that experience and maybe go in house. And I had heard about this company that had won board seats on Exxon GM, you know, trying to get companies to be more environmentally responsible, and thinking about their impact. And that was very inspiring to me. So I reached out to the general counsel. I reached out to the general counsel and sent him a note, and I love it. And I said, look, I'm looking for a position. I'm very inspired by the work that you're doing there. And, he called me, and, you know, we just developed a relationship from there. And just so happens that he was looking for deputy general counsel and someone to take over compliance for him. And so I, we made that connection. I spent about two years at engine number one. The firm part, of that business got sold, and at that point decided to look around and look for other opportunities and landed at Hunter Brook. And funny enough, we launched today. Really, exciting to be a part of another group trying to make a difference. >> Rebecca Glatzer: That's amazing. I love this story because it's not the traditional interview for law firm x during OCI summer with such firm, get a job at such firm, like, take this linear path that so many lawyers are used to taking, and there's so many successful folks outside of that path that really achieve great and wonderful things, impressive things, like you have. And, I don't know, it just goes to show that perseverance and doing things like networking and being, I can't think of a better word, but, like, persistent in pursuit of your dreams, really, can pay off. And so I absolutely love this, Fitz. One of the things you touched upon is this idea of networking And one of the things I wanted to ask you about is something you touched upon a couple times, is this idea of networking. I think for a lot of people, especially if they've had that linear path where it's just like lockstep. They did what people told them to do, and it worked out. when it comes to network working, it's a little bit of a fuzzy idea. and I was wondering what your thoughts are or tips might be for younger folks who are just embarking on their legal career. You know, what does networking look like and how should you approach it? And how do you get the attention of a very busy, you know, deputy general counsel or some of the folks that you mentioned, or a GC? how do you get them to talk to you when you're, a lowly first year or a lowly, you know, recently graduated? >> Fitz Reed: JD, you said two things there that are very connected for me. and one is, you know, not taking that traditional path and then. And then networking. So the reason why the traditional path didn't work for me and traditional path being, you know, going through Oci and interviewing at law firms is because I did it. I, you know, my first year, I did interview. You know, I got pretty good grades in law school. I wasn't. Wasn't the very topic of the class, by any means, but I was doing all right. And I got a lot of interviews for Oci, and I can't tell you how many of them went awry very quickly. you know, when you're the. I'm a black queer woman, and, gender non conforming, you know, so I'm not wearing skirts, and interviews, I'm not, you know, dolled up in any way. That's not how I present. And so I looked great on paper. >> Rebecca Glatzer: For a lot of firms. >> Fitz Reed: And then when they, you know, pulled me in for an interview, this is pre pandemic days, and, you know, it's a panel of mostly straight, white men asking me what diversity I could bring to their firm. You know, some of it was just honestly comical. I'm just sitting there like, yeah. Are you serious? >> Fitz Reed: And, you know, I had experiences where I was asked, you know, very uncomfortable questions. I remember an interview very distinctly where these are all top law firms. And it's incredible to me that, you know, some of the things that were said, like, I had one woman who. I don't know how it came up that I'm of jamaican descent. And she had asked me why I don't have an accent and if I can do the lovely jamaican accent. And I was like, I'm not here to perform for you. And also, I'm from the US, so I was born and raised here. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Yeah. >> Fitz Reed: so, you know, things like that would happen. I had one partner, a big partner at a law firm, say to me that, you know, I'm fantastic. But he doesn't know how, he didn't know how he would put me in front of his clients, which is very funny, because, you know, I work with a lot of, you know, those same type of clients that he's talking about. Those are the folks I work with today, and have no problem with. And so, you know, so I think I very quickly realized that that traditional path was just not going to work for me. I tried it and it didn't work. And so I decided to just, you know, create my own space. And it's. It's hard to say. It's difficult to say to someone who is already marginalized and from a marginalized background that they have to do the work to create their own space. But unfortunately, what I've experienced is if I don't do the work to do that, it's never going to happen, right? No one's going to do it for me. So I have to be my own advocate. And so I, you know, first year of law school, I decided to go to South Africa to work in, legal aid, instead of going to a law firm. Most fulfilling experience I've ever had. And it's unparalleled compared to some of the experiences that I know my, friends had in their one l summers. And so I, don't, definitely do not regret it. but I just created my own spaces and tried to do things that I found fulfilling, not necessarily what other people said, was the carved out path to follow. and part of that is networking. Part of that is finding your people, if that makes sense. You have to find the people that will invest in you, that will support you, that will, talk so positively of you when you're not in the room and those people exist. And so that was my goal and aim was to find those people. And it was hard because there's definitely people who. Lots of folks saying no, lots of folks closing doors, but for every person that closes the door, every ten people that close the door on you, you just need that one person, that one person to pass your resume along, that one person to speak highly of you. And once that door is open, you can, blast through it and make spaces for other people. And so that's how I always viewed networking. And it's not necessarily what you can do for me, but what can we do for each other as a community? Whenever I meet someone new, lawyer or not, one of the things that I always say is, let me know if there's ever anything I can do to support you and your work. And I mean that. And I have people reach out and say, hey, can you write this recommendation? Can you help me with this? Or, I'm starting a new, business. You've started business before. Can I get some advice? And I'm always there to answer that call because I do feel like that energy comes back to you in so many different ways. And so, you know, when I think about networking, I think about it from m a community aspect. You know, let's build community together. How can we support each other? How can we, we're not going to get to these heights individually. and we may not share the same identities, but there's, there's some way in which you can support me and I can support you. And so even in law school, that, that's how I approached it. And so many more folks were receptive to that and willing to, to help me out because they knew that if there was ever a day that they needed anything for me, I'd be there. >> Rebecca Glatzer: That's fantastic. And I love that. I love so many sentiments here. You know, you're not going to get there on your own. You know, how could we do this together? But I think that that mentality, I totally believe in what you're saying. That's myself, which is this idea that, like, you get back what you give. it comes back to you. It's almost like physics, you know, and it may not come tomorrow, and it may not come in the form that you're expecting, but you're going to get it back. I don't know if that's like a spiritual way of thinking about the world or how you might label it, but I truly believe in that because it's happened to me personally, as well. Fitzgerald: You can't be afraid to approach people So can you give an example to sort of drill down just a little bit more on this topic of networking? Like, I get comments a lot of times from candidates who are trying to go in house or trying to maybe switch practice areas. And a lot of times I will give them advice about this, that you need to be in the spaces where you want to be. And you have to think creatively about the way in which to do that. And that may be, for example, like attending cles in a practice area that you want to be in, but you're currently not, right? And so you're like sitting there learning about this topic, and you're sitting elbow to elbow with people who are actually practitioners. That's an example. and sometimes that requires people to get out of their comfort zone because they feel like the odd man out. Like, I don't know anything about this. And I'm sitting with all these people who knew a lot about it. and I tease them and I say, well, here's something you should know about recruiting in life. People like to talk about themselves, and so asking them questions about how they got into big tech or whatever. Right. so I'm curious how you, I'm being facetious here. As a lowly student, JD student, 1st, 2nd, 3rd year of law school, approached people who maybe were significantly senior to you and were already at Wells Fargo or were already practicing in finance, how did you sort of think about that or conceptualize the approach? How do I even approach them in the first place? >> Fitz Reed: I think you just got to realize that, folks are human. These are not folks that are anymore, valuable, than you, or knowledgeable than you in a lot of ways. They might have a specific specialty, but you might be able to be offered something that they have never even thought of before, have expertise in something that they have never considered before. And so whenever I approach someone, I don't treat them as if they're someone special or someone better than me or anything like that. I even had that feeling in law school. you know, I would talk to general counsels at big companies as if they were the average person, because in some ways, they just, they're just people, too. And so, you know, I think you always, you know, open the conversation with learning from them. I think one of the things that I found, and to your point is, ask people about themselves, you know, what can I learn from? You've accomplished so much. You know, I'd love to learn more about how you got to where you are and what are the things that I should be paying attention to. And people will talk for hours about that. That just opens up the conversation. But you can't be afraid to approach people. I've always found that, and even if it's just to introduce yourself, because the legal community is so small, you're going to run into folks over and over again. Right. And if you go to an event and you see a speaker that you, like, introduce yourself, and it could just be like, hey, I'm Fitz, I'm a one l at Washington University in St. Louis, and I'm interested in finance. Really appreciated your talk today, and that can be the conversation. And then you'll see that person again, and you can say, hey, I saw you at that other talk, and, you know, you know, I spoke with you briefly, and I have some questions. Right. And you build relationships over time like that. You find their. Find their email address. Most. Most folks, you know, you can find their email addresses, send them a note, and say, and I used to do this all the time. You know, I'd see a speaker or someone that I'm, like, someone in a high position, and I would just send them a note and say, this is who I am. I'm really interested in, your career. I'm interested in finance, wondering if you had any words of advice for me. And I don't remember a time when someone didn't respond to me. You know, people. People want to help, and you have to lean into that. But I would also say that you also have to know and have some certainty about what you want to do. I think that helps in getting those responses. If you are new to a space and don't know much about it, spend time learning about it before you approach someone. Have some certainty about what you want to do or think about in your career, where you want to be five to ten years from now. it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to say, I got to be a GC at a tech company, but you can say, I know I want to work in tech, right? And so at least narrow down the playing field, because the more you can do that and the more you can articulate that, I think folks can kind of focus in on how they can help. If you're too general, and. Or if you're kind of, you know, interested in so many different things, that's hard to pinpoint something. It's harder for folks to lean in and help you or, you know, pass your resume along to the right people. It has to be a kind of a focused effort. So if you're in a new space, I would say learn as much as you can about it. Spend some time thinking about and articulating, where you want to be and how you want to take this knowledge and where you envision yourself. And then don't be afraid to just talk to people, because I think nine times out of ten, you're going to find folks that want to engage with you and want to help in any way that they can. >> Rebecca Glatzer: No, I think that's great advice, in terms of thinking of folks as people, too. you know, they both, they, they put their pants on the same way you do, you know, they have the same stresses and issues with their kids as you do, you know, so humanizing folks, makes it easier to talk to them. And I think your, point is well taken. The one about, you know, you need to know yourself a little bit first. Google is your friend taking advantage of you, you know, cles, taking advantage of resources that are on the Internet, taking advantage of people that are in your close circle who are doing this, and then expanding to people that maybe you don't know, you know, that's all really, really good advice, to our listening audience as well. You are in both the legal and the finance field you talked about forging your own career path fits, you know, based on your experiences during Oci and the law firm interview process. but you are in these spaces that includes, being the sports executive of an international sports branch, guys, you know, being in both the legal and the finance field and being in, you know, the space that kind of overlaps in both where you are continually, I would imagine, just based on the statistics and my own personal experiences, you know, you're one of one, right? You're the, I would imagine you were often in the room where you are the only person that looks like you or identifies as you. and that include, can include everything from your, you know, familial, immigration experience to, you know, being a black queer woman, in this space. So, I was curious, you know, how you have continually succeeded in these spaces, you know, even as you forge your own path. Oh, yeah. >> Fitz Reed: When you're so you, you know, I've entered two professions in a way that, has, small, very small percentages of women, very small percentages of folks of color, and even smaller percentages of black folks that, be the legal profession, and then finance. And so, you know, I work at a hedge fund, and it's not a space that's hedge fund space, is not a space that's known for lots of diversity. Right? So, you know, I also went to Wharton to get my executive MBA, and out of about 110 or so folks in my program on the west coast, I was the only black woman, right? So I'm always in spaces where I am one, of one in a lot of ways. And my goal is always to create spaces where I'm not right and bringing people in, where I can, because I think it's so important. I don't want to be the only one. I want to be making spaces for others as well. And so, how do I navigate it? I think there's a couple of things I try to think of my, being those identities of being a woman, being black, being, queer, as superpowers, and lean into it. It's not something I shy away from. It's not something I'm in any way, modest about or embarrassed about. I walk into the room and I walk with my head held high and my chest out. And I think a lot of people gravitate to that in their own ways. I try to find people, even if we share only one piece of my identity, other women in the room that I can build a community with. Other black folks in the room I can build a community with, other folks from. I grew up in a poor neighborhood in New York. there's lots of folks that grow up from disadvantaged backgrounds, that I could build community with. So I'm not necessarily going to find someone with my exact identity, intersections of identities. But there's always space to find people that share something, that we share something in common, and, we can build community around that. Sometimes it's just, I'm a big sports, fan. I love sports. I love competition. I grew up playing sports. And sometimes that's it. That is a sports lover. And we can talk about sports all day. And that is the thing that binds us. And once you can find one piece to connect with someone, I think it makes a huge difference in not only how they see you and view you, but how they will go out of their way to, pick up the phone when you call. And that's been my experience. I found that you can find your community almost anywhere and it takes time and it takes, a lot of bumps. You mentioned bumps earlier when, we were talking. it takes time and it takes. Sometimes you talk to the wrong person and it can completely turn you off from networking with other folks. But all it takes is that one person and one person to build that community with. And, it can really change the trajectory of your professional career because you just don't know where that person will end up and how that person, who that person knows and how they can help you in the long run and how you can help them. >> Rebecca Glatzer: No, that's great. That's great advice. You have this, positivity fit that I love. when it comes to your career and being in these spaces, because I think it's easy to kind of get discouraged or depressed when, you're having a series of negative experiences, especially in the beginning of your career, and you don't have that confidence yet where you're like, I know what I'm talking about. I know what I'm doing. once you have that, you're like, okay, this person who's talking to me crazy is an idiot, and I'm just gonna let that. They're in their own little world and they don't know what they're talking about. Right. And it's easy to sort of dismiss them. But in the beginning it's a bit nerve wracking. and to me, this is a sign of resilience, to have negative experiences and kind of just let it. You may cry, you may punch, you may curse in private, right. But in public, you keep going, right. And you keep moving forward. I was curious where the strength knowledge help to get through difficult experiences comes from And I was curious where the strength knowledge help to get through difficult experiences comes from for you. Yeah. >> Fitz Reed: I mean, look, working as, with my identities, working in spaces that I work, you get gaslit a lot. Not gaslit as much anymore given where I am. But, you know, when you're coming up, when you're in law school, when you're initially taking that first full time legal job, that happens to you so often when people just assume you don't know what you're talking about or you know, you come up with a great idea and somebody else says the same exact thing and it's like you never spoke. That happened so many times to me and to, I know to so many folks. how do I remain positive through that? You know, it's going to be a little cliche to say, but I do think about the people who came before me. I'm not the first, right. there, there are folks who have come before me who, have worked in law and finance, who are black, who are queer, who are gender nonconforming, who had to navigate these things and worse, and were able to do it. And so in so many ways, I'm following in the footsteps of others. And I think about, as hard as it is and has been for me to get to where I am, I know it was so much harder for others. And so, you know, I put it in perspective and, you know, I, I also have this conviction that, things will work out. I think that, you know, no matter how negative things get and things have gotten negative, you know? You know, getting nos after no's after no's for so long, or no, you can't do that. No, that's not possible. You know, you have to build up a level of resiliency to be like, well, if you're not going to open that door for me or you're not going to make that happen for me, I'm going to find somebody who will. That's got to be how you, kind of navigate. Ah, I don't mean to bring, ah, Beyonce into the conversation, but I. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Please do. Please do. I am a fan girl. Yeah, I'm a big fan. >> Fitz Reed: You know, there's documentaries where she talks about, you know, even at her level, when people tell her no or she can't do something and she's beyonce and people know who she is, she still can't get something done or they're still telling her no and how she has to navigate that no matter what level you get to because of our background, if you're coming from a traditionally marginalized background, there's always going to be this level of doubt, and there's always going to be people who are going to tell you what you can and cannot do, but you've got to find ways to get around it. And again, I want to say it's. It sucks. It sucks to be, the person that has to navigate this. And sometimes you feel like you're navigating it on your own in so many ways, but if you don't do it for yourself, it's going to be near impossible for these things to happen. You have to be your own advocate. If, someone doesn't open the door for you, keep pushing as somebody else does. Keep, having conversations around them. You just have to, in, order to make it happen, and these things will happen, you know? And no matter how many people tell you that something can't be done, trust me, it can be done. but there may not. They may not be the right person to help you get it done, and so you just need to keep digging. And that's kind of the perspective I've taken, for a very long time, is if I get a no from someone or someone, you know, doesn't seem like they're willing to help, me or be an advocate, then, you know, I just keep pushing till I find the person that will be. >> Rebecca Glatzer: I love that. I love it. Go over them, under them, through them. That's what I'm hearing. >> Fitz Reed: You say yes, absolutely. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think that's a fantastic way to live. and that's how to get things done, especially if your identities are. So I think that's great advice. >> Fitz Reed: I'll say what. I'll say one other thing. I'll bring you into my childhood. my mother, to this day, will tell people that, you know, I was a hard headed child. you know, and it's true. Look, I would. If you told me to go right, I was going left. This is how I was as a kid. I was always that kid that was always trying to figure out how to do something differently or, you know, not necessarily listening and listening. And I can only imagine how hard it was to raise me, given that I was kind of stubborn in that way. But it's that hard headedness and that stubbornness that helped me to get where I am today. Like, if I stopped every time someone said, oh, I can't help you with that, or no to that, I wouldn't be where I am. There's no way to accomplish these things if you're not persistent, and advocating for yourself. And so I lean into being hard headed. I love it. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Any day. >> Fitz Reed: Yeah, absolutely. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Yeah. >> Fitz Reed: Ah. >> Rebecca Glatzer: What is that? That quote, apology to whoever, it belongs to. It's a well behaved women rarely make history, and. >> Fitz Reed: Exactly. >> Rebecca Glatzer: I wholeheartedly believe that. So, I love it. Yeah. Stomp on. Stomp on what can and shouldn't be done. M make it happen. Gotta make it happen. Well, I could talk to you for, like, hours, Fitz, but I know that you are very busy and have plenty of other things to do. So, for time, I'm going to ask this one final question. What advice do you have for newly mended attorneys trying to find their way while the legal profession can be very rewarding, especially, like, someone in your case has found their way in it, it can also be grueling at times, and you feel like you're being punched in the face. I'm speaking for myself. What advice do you have for newly mended attorneys who are trying to find their way, way in this profession? >> Fitz Reed: Don't try to do it by yourself. I think that going through law school is such an individualist. It can be such an individualistic exercise because, you know, you're kind of pitted against other people in your class. But even in law school, you find someone that. Your study partner find someone who can help you, who you can help them. And that goes true for every aspect of life. I mean, you don't have to do things alone. even when times are hard. At least you have somebody else to lean on and you can build your own communities. It's not as if, you have to go to large conferences and meet a bunch of people. If that's not for you, that's fine. You can find three to four people that you can lean on. And maybe you all get, you know, lunch every Tuesday, or you all have a phone call to check in on each other, you know, once a month, and talk about, you know, navigating tough spaces or tough conversations or navigating a job. But whoever that person is or whoever those folks are, build a community in it, however big or small, and lean on those folks as you kind of grow in your career, as you're making decisions about, you know, what's your next move or where you should be applying. And don't be afraid to ask for help. so much of this is being vulnerable, letting people know that, hey, I'm struggling and I need help finding my, next position or my next job or entering this profession. And things are scary. It's scary for everybody. So if we can lean in, and support each other in so many different ways and open up and be honest about where we are and find those people that you can trust, it'll go a long way. And the final thing I'd say is you definitely want to invest in people that will invest in you. I do think that pays dividends in the long run. and so really find those folks, find your community, find your people, and lean on them and be transparent, and I think you'll get where you want to go. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Wonderful, wonderful advice, all of it. Fitzgerald discusses bouncing back resilience for lawyers on MLA's legal talk network Well, Fitz, I want to thank you so much for giving me your time and being so open and honest with me and our listeners today. I know they will get a lot out of this conversation. I certainly did, and I sincerely appreciate your time. >> Fitz Reed: Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful. >> Rebecca Glatzer: Thank you for listening to bouncing back resilience for lawyers. Join us next time for another story about thriving after overcoming challenges. You can find bouncing, back and other programming for lawyers on MLA's legal talk network.