Don't quit your day job until that thing you love becomes compensated >> Merle Vaughn: Hit it. >> Adrienne Miller: That's what I'm talking about. Wait. Okay, now from the beginning. >> Merle Vaughn: Welcome to B's, beyond stereotypes, a podcast about lawyers using their authentic voices to change the world. >> Adrienne Miller: Be nice to people, because you just never, ever know what opportunities that other person may present to you down the road. I tell people to, you know, don't quit your day job, until that thing you love becomes, compensated. So you want to find your bliss, right? You want to find that thing to your soul, and find a way to let that flourish. But don't just quit everything and pursue that. You know, you need. You need to make sure you pay your bills. Merle Vaughn welcomes Adrienne Miller to B's beyond stereotypes >> Merle Vaughn: Welcome to B's beyond stereotypes. I'm your host, Merle Vaughn, here to B's. With me today is Adrienne Miller, whose story I find fascinating and who will no doubt inspire all of you to embrace your authenticity. Hey, Adrienne, how are you? >> Adrienne Miller: I'm good. How are you feeling? >> Merle Vaughn: I'm, feeling pretty good. Yeah, I can't complain. How about you? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, doing all right. >> Merle Vaughn: All right, well, I am so excited to have this conversation with you and share you with the audience. and, you know, the way I found you, of course, you know, thanks to the Internet, I was looking for someone who could basically school, my company on, soul food. and you weren't available, but then I was like, hey, maybe you do your. Do my podcast. And you agreed. So thank you. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. Adrian Miller is the executive director of the Colorado Council of Churches >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah. So let me just tell folks a little bit about you. Adrian, received his undergraduate degree from Stanford and his JD from Georgetown, law school. you practiced, in Denver for about five years, I understand, before moving to the White House as a special assistant to President Clinton for about a year and a half, and then left there in your GC for the bell policy center for about five years. and then you're a senior policy analyst for Governor Bill Ritter for about four years, and then you were a campaign manager in 2012, and then something happened and you just decided to chuck it all and start focusing on food. Did I get that right? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, for the most part. I do have a day job. So for the last ten years, I've been the executive director of the Colorado Council of Churches. >> Merle Vaughn: Oh, nice. What does that encompass? >> Adrienne Miller: So that's about bringing together Christian, churches and denominations that normally don't talk to each other, to get to know each other, build relationships, and then collectively we do social justice work in Colorado. >> Merle Vaughn: Nice. Okay. So I will definitely come back to that, because there's a lot. I think there's a lot that could be explored about, our current religious. The religious state these days and how it's being politicized, especially since you're a politico, or former politico. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. >> Merle Vaughn: So I was reading about you and your title. You consider yourself a, ah, soul food scholar, which I absolutely love. And then, you know, your. Your tagline is dropping knowledge like hot biscuits. M. That is brilliant. And I. And I love that. But before we get. Colorado is between three to 5% black. So that would lend itself to being more diverse Oh, and you know what? The other thing I want to make sure people know is that you're an award winner. So, you won the James Beard award, beard award, a book award, twice. you're, ah, NAACP image award nominee, and you've won the Colorado book, award, and you were featured on the Netflix smash hit high on the hog. so if there's anything like that I left out that you want folks to know about, let me know. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. So that's a pretty good rundown. I think the most significant honor that I've gotten recently is I was inducted into the blacks in Colorado hall of Fame. >> Merle Vaughn: Oh, wow. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. So that was pretty cool. >> Merle Vaughn: They have blacks in Colorado. >> Adrienne Miller: They do, yeah. You know, I tell people Colorado is much more diverse than you think. we have a lot of different kinds of white people. That's a joke. >> Merle Vaughn: Okay. Ta da. But. Okay. >> Adrienne Miller: No, no, it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Colorado is about, like, Denver, especially, is about 10% black now. And Colorado, I think, is between three to 5% black. So. Rich history. In fact, I did an exhibit at the museum of Boulder on Colorado's black history. that's been very well received. >> Merle Vaughn: Nice. And I know that there's a big military presence, too, particularly in Colorado springs. So that would lend itself to. Lend Colorado to being probably more diverse than a lot of folks. Kind of a lot of places going in that direction of. Of the country. Adrienne Brown was born and raised in Denver, Colorado So what I like to do, Adrienne, is start out by giving you an opportunity to tell your story. You know, where. Where are you from? where are you from? How did you get, where you are, you know, who helped you, who encouraged you? and, you know. And, you know, to the extent that you're willing to share your journey with us, I'll give you a couple minutes to do that. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. So, born and raised in Denver, Colorado, which is immediately, loses me all street cred on the subject of soul food. >> Merle Vaughn: Right? >> Adrienne Miller: So what I tell people to get some street cred back is my parents are from the south. so great migration story. My dad's from Helena, Arkansas, my mom is from Chattanooga, Tennessee. And they separately and independently came to Denver in the sixties and met in church, Campbell Chapel Ame church, which is where I still go to this day. and so the rest is history. So, grew up, in Denver and then moved to the suburbs, Aurora, and like you said it earlier, went to Stanford University undergrad and then went to Georgetown law school. and the way I got, you know, when I was practicing law, and this is not to disparage anybody who's an attorney or they have attorneys in their family, their social network, it just wasn't for me. It got to the point where I was singing spirituals in my office. And, you know what was really messed up is that white people would join in. >> Merle Vaughn: So let my people go. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, you'd go to the copier and say, hey, becky, what's going on? And she'd look at me and saying, nobody knows the trouble I've seen. I'm m like, dang. So, I didn't want to practice law, so I was going to open up a soul food restaurant, but then a friend of mine, Kathleen, on, reached out to me and she was already working in the Clinton White House on something called the initiative for one America. And, that was an outgrowth of President Clinton's initiative on race. And the initiative on race had the wild and crazy idea that if we just talked to one another and listened, we might realize that we have a lot more in common than what supposedly divides us. So the late John Hope Franklin ran that and, for about two years. And when that finished, they said, hey, mister president, you need to have a ongoing office in the White House to deal with these issues. And that became the initiative for one America. So my friend reached out to me because she was just wondering if I had anybody in DC who I was still talking to, who they could quickly hire for a position they had on the initiative for one America. And after she described it to me, I did the same thing that Dick Cheney did when George W. Bush asked him to find the vice president. I was the head of the search committee. My name was the only one put on the list. Yep, went to DC, loved it. I was there at the last, roughly year and a half of the Clinton, administration is second term. and at that time of my life, I really thought I was going to eventually become, go into politics and run for the US Senate to represent Colorado. So I was trying to get back to Colorado, but, the job market was really slow, and I was watching a lot of daytime television. I'm really embarrassed to tell you what shows, Jerry, Jerry. >> Merle Vaughn: Oh my goodness. >> Adrienne Miller: So in the depth of my depravity, I said, you know, I should read something. So I went to a local bookstore, got a book on the history of southern food written by a guy named John Edgerton. It's, called Southern Food at home on the road in history. And in that book, Mister Edgerton wrote that the tribute to black achievement and american cookery has yet to be written. So he wrote those words in the late eighties. I'm reading it in 2001, and I'm thinking to myself, well, somebody's done it by now. And but I couldn't find anything like that. So I just reached out to him on, by email. And Mister Edgerton, I just wrote to him, said, mister Edgerton, I loved your book. You know, you wrote this one sentence, do you still think this is true? And he wrote back and said, hey, you know, nobody's really done it. There's always room for another voice, so why not yours? So with no qualifications at all, except for eating a lot of soul food and cooking at some, that's what started the journey. So I did get a job back in Colorado at the think tank that you mentioned, the bell policy center. and, you know, I was kind of like an amateur grad student. So after work and on weekends, I would just go to my world class public library. I'm blessed to live in a community that supports its library. And I just gathered everything I could on black food traditions and, started the side hustle of working on food. So I had this life of politics by day and then just working on food, by night and on the weekends. And that ultimately led to, writing the first book on the history of soul food. And, the research that I did is I read 3500 oral histories of formerly enslaved people and referenced every mention, of food. And then I read 500 cookbooks, half of them authored by African Americans, because I wanted to put black food traditions in a larger culinary context, read thousands of newspaper magazine articles, talked to hundreds of people. And then because I care so deeply about my subject, I decided to eat my way through the country. So I went to 150 soul food restaurants in 35 cities in 15 states. So that is the corpus of research that I did that my really informed my first book on soul food, my second book on the history of black chefs in the White House. And my third book, the History of African American Barbecue. And it will be the foundation for future books to come. >> Merle Vaughn: Right. And that's fascinating. And let's just tell people. The first book is called the surprising story of an american cuisine one place at a time. and that was, the one that was the winner of the 2014 James Beard Foundation Book award. and then the second book is called the president's. The second book is called the president's kitchen cabinet. The story of the african, of the African Americans who have fed our first families from the Washingtons to the Obamas. And then the third book is called Black Smoke, African American and the United States of barbecue. what's your favorite? You were one of the few black kids at suburban Denver high school well, I'm sorry, I should let you finish your story. I mean, who in your life, do you give credit to being supportive or, directing your young self? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, so, I was, I had some very supportive teachers. I can think of Mark onstadt and, some other people, Diane Snyder, Mary Bartholomew. So these were high school teachers that were very supportive of me and encouraging as being one of the few black kids at a, you know, predominantly white school in suburban Denver. And also, like the only black kid on the honor roll. so, you know, and so I got a lot of, you know, being on the honor roll, you're just going to get a lot of flack from people anyway, from being. For being a nerd. But I especially got it from other black students. >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah. >> Adrienne Miller: because being, smart meant I wasn't really black. Which is actually a critique I still get to this day, which is just really weird. given our history, we've had so many intellectual giants as part of the african american tradition, but, you know, that's part of it. but, you know, I have to say the lion's share of support came from my black church community. It's always been a refuge. And I thank my parents, Hyman Miller and Johnetta Miller, for a lot of things. But one of the things I'm deeply grateful to them for is they kept us tethered to black life, even though they moved to the suburbs. So every Sunday and even on the weekends, I mean, we would go, we would drive a half an hour into Denver to do church, go to church and do church activities. And then they kept us fed, on soul food growing up. So that's, that was a plus, too. So, yeah, but this, the pastors and the church mothers and fathers and friends at my church were just very encouraging, and have really been a stalwart of support throughout my life. >> Merle Vaughn: So as one of the only, or few black kids in your high school, you know, a lot of times that doesn't work out that well. It sounds like you had some pretty, had some really supportive teachers. But to end up at Stanford, I mean, was that kind of something on your radar or how did that, how did it come about? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, so, you know, I didn't know much about Stanford, but the reputation it had in Colorado, at least, is that only 4.0s from California get into Stanford. And I had a 3.833 because I got a b in geometry. I'm really upset about that. so I just didn't even think I was going to get in. So I wasn't planning to apply. And I just. My sophomore year, one of my social studies teacher, Nancy Van Ness, was a Stanford alum, and she mentioned it to, you know, she mentioned Stanford to me and I said the same thing that I just told you, and she just started cracking up. and she said, that's not true. I said, it's not. She's like, no, you should apply. So I ended up applying because of that. Otherwise, you know, I was thinking that, there were plenty other really good schools, but, you know, the Harvards, the Stanfords, the Princetons, all of those. I just thought I wouldn't get in because I had one, b plus on my transcript. And, you know, high school kids are intense and they just never know, right? And you just hear these rumors. So, yeah, it was really her that nudged me to apply. >> Merle Vaughn: And how did the other kids, did you get any flak for that? I know when my daughter, my daughter got in Yale early, in high school, she, she, got it from both, all sides. You know, her white friends were mad at her because they thought that she had taken their spot. You know, she probably checked the black box and took her spot. And, you know, her black friends were mad because she didn't tell them that she had applied. And, you know, and she was a sellout because she wasn't going to go to an HBCU. I mean, do. How did you experience any of that? >> Adrienne Miller: Oh, I got all of the same stuff. yeah. you know, even my barber was getting, on me for not going to an HBCU. And, yeah, so, you know, that's, that was just part of it. But I had all. But I had been on the honor roll since middle school, and so I had gotten that for years. So it didn't really bother me as much. It did hurt a little bit because some people who never really said anything said stuff, and I thought they were my friends, right? So, that, that was hurtful from. From white friends, but, you know, from black kids, I'd gotten that all the time. So that was. I was expecting it from the black kids, but when a few white kids said stuff, then I was like, okay, so that's how you really feel, right? Keeping your options open is important, but more importantly, relationships >> Merle Vaughn: And so when you practice the law, what. What, area of practice were you in? >> Adrienne Miller: So I started out in litigation and doing employment law, which is not what I initially wanted to do. I always wanted to do corporate law because, I'm about bringing people together. So doing a deal was a way to see that. And then also I thought that if I could get the skillset, I could help, entrepreneurs, especially entrepreneurs of color, start businesses and build to their exit strategy. So I thought that would be a fun practice, you know, helping these people, realize their entrepreneurial dreams. But, you know, law firms slot you where they need you. And at that time, Denver was a, was a very popular market, and so a lot of people were trying to get back to Denver, and there weren't a lot of jobs to go around. So it's kind of like, okay, take it or leave it, you know? and I. Plus, I had a lot of debt coming out of law school, so I had what people call the golden handcuffs. So, you know, getting a law firm job was pretty critical to me and very, very important. Now, looking back on that, I realized I had other options, but, you know, I just didn't. I was new to this legal world, so I just didn't know the full range of options that I had. >> Merle Vaughn: And so, I mean, the way you got to, what, to DC, and the White House, it reminds me of the story that, Paul Wofford told, the former 9th, circuit judge told about how he got to be a judge. It's like he's just talking to a friend, and a friend said, what do you think about this? And so I think that one of the things that we always like to talk about on this podcast is keeping your options open, but more importantly, relationships. You know, what, you know, how would you describe how important relationships have been throughout your, your journey? >> Adrienne Miller: Oh, it's been very critical because, throughout my career, there have been people that have helped me. Like, I think about partners in the law firm that on their own, like Ed Arrow, was a partner at my law firm in home Robertson Owen. And he just kind of took me under his wing and really, worked with me, wanted to help me become a better writer and other things. And so we're still friends to this day. there was another guy, he wasn't even a litigator. He was in the corporate department, a guy named Bruce black, who, came to me on his own and just said, hey, I really want to see you succeed here. which, that was just really refreshing and such a sharp contrast because it seemed like so many other people didn't want me to succeed there because law firm life can be so unnecessarily, hostile. Right. so that meant a lot. and then, you know, it was the fact that I was still nice to that Kathleen, on in law school, that she remembered me. So when I talk to kids, especially young people, I just tell them, just always be nice to someone, to everyone you meet, because you never know. Somebody you know is going to blow up and they'll take you along for the ride, but if, you know, if they have salty feelings about you, they're not going to tell you about opportunities. >> Merle Vaughn: Exactly. >> Adrienne Miller: And then in the White House, my immediate boss, Ben Johnson, because President Clinton was my ultimate boss, you know, during the waning days of the Clinton administration, he, helped me get appointed to special assistant to the president, which is a very special rank. he didn't have to do that because, you know, the administration was ending, but he understood what that would mean for me going forward. And so I'm incredibly grateful to him for that. yeah, and then. >> Merle Vaughn: That's awesome. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. And then the last thing I'll say is that, I often tell people to share your dream, and, I know people steal stuff, and that happens. But when you share your dream, great things happen, at least in my case. And so because I shared my dream with people with whom I have relationship, they've opened doors and suggested things that I just never even thought of. So a lot of good things have happened for me. but by building and maintaining relationships. >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah. And that last point, I think, is important. I think, you know, I. A lot of people think, you know, you should keep stuff to yourself. Don't tell anybody what you're doing, what you want to do, you know, but I'm a believer that nobody can do it like you would do it. No, nobody's going to be able to do something the way you do it, you know, and it's not necessarily going to be the same thing, you know? >> Adrienne Miller: Exactly. >> Merle Vaughn: And there's nothing that's new right there. There's absolutely. Although what you're doing is pretty, pretty new, but pretty cutting edge. But, but, you know, there's nothing that is, is, you know, completely new. And you got the idea from somebody else who, who put it out there. >> Adrienne Miller: Right, right. You know, and so, and then also putting yourself out there can help you maybe look at things differently and take a fresh approach. But, like, for instance, another person who's been very influential to me is a white writer named John T. Edge, who's a very well, known food writer on southern food. It's got a tv show and other things. Very influential guy. You, know, he's been a mentor to me. And, when I was writing my soul food book, I had so much information, I was really struggling on how to tell this story. And he's the one that just gave me some timely advice. you know, he said, write the book that you would want to read. and he said, you know, a useful format is maybe creating a meal and talking about soul food through a meal. And he got that from a book that a british writer wrote about british food history using a meal. And that was a template that really worked, a framework that really worked well for me. So, you know, all kinds of good things happen when you start talking to folks. >> Merle Vaughn: And so, you know, in the law, and I know you're a recovering lawyer, as am m. I, but one of the things that we always talk to folks about is mentors and sponsors and how important they are. And, you know, you just gave that example. Like, how did you meet him? >> Adrienne Miller: So I. When I was first studying or just reaching out, when I was just doing fine, trying to get it on the Internet and trying to find everything I could about african american food traditions, my first, one of my early Internet searches came up with the Southern Foodways alliance, and he was the executive, director of that. And so I was like, okay, well, this is interesting. And so, I was reading online, and it was unclear how to join m and so I just emailed and they said, hey, I'm just looking for information on how to join this organization. And then he, on his own, just said, oh, I'm just curious, why are you interested in, in us? And I explained that I'm working on a history of soul food. And he's like, oh, you definitely have to come to our next gathering. >> Merle Vaughn: Oh. >> Adrienne Miller: So I, just went from there, and then we started having an email correspondence. Then I went to an event, met him, we hit it off well. And then he invited me to be on the board, and being on the board of the organization opened me up to a whole bunch of contacts m that, you know, someone outside of the south just wouldn't have had otherwise. and he's read my stuff, commented. And so, yeah, he was very, very helpful to me. >> Merle Vaughn: That's amazing. And so, you know what's interesting, when you. When you talk about, southern food, my. I'm originally from Oklahoma, and so, which is kind of south is definitely. Our food was definitely southern. Right. But my husband is, all his family is from a little place called Hosky, North Carolina. And, I remember going there and going to a restaurant, and we go in this restaurant. It's this little quaint, just not a hole in the wall, but just a regular old restaurant. And I look at the menu, and from my perspective, this is all soul food. >> Adrienne Miller: Right. There's a narrative that soul food was wholly created for black people >> Merle Vaughn: You know, but this is not a black restaurant, you know, which is what I'm used to. I'm used to only black. You know, I grew up in California, so, you know, if you wanted soul food, you went to either your mama's house or a black soul food restaurant. This is just everybody's restaurant in a husky North Carolina. And I was. I didn't know what to do with that, you know? And I remember, ordering, and then they brought all this food, like fried catfish and, you know, creamed corn and, you know, all this stuff that I knew as soul food. And I was just kind of like, wow. And I remember the. The white waitress looking at me, and she said, you in the south now, baby, this is just food. >> Adrienne Miller: So did they. Did they have black cooks? >> Merle Vaughn: You know, I don't remember. probably, but. Probably. But I don't remember. >> Adrienne Miller: Okay. So that was one of the biggest surprises of my first book, because I had. There's a narrative that soul food was wholly created for black people because it was the stuff that white people didn't want. And that narrative is powerful and enduring. And part of the reason why I wrote the soul food book was just. Just to sort out fact from fiction about that. But one of the biggest surprises was that it's more about class and place than race. >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah. >> Adrienne Miller: So pretty much people of the same socioeconomic class in a place are eating the same food now because of race. They aren't eating it together, but they're pretty much eating the same food. And so that blew me away because I was like, oh, okay. this. This narrative that I bought 100%, it may not be the whole story. And then I started looking more and more. And, you know, there are plenty of white people that eat chitlins. for example, I don't know if you know this. Every year in Sally, South Carolina, in late August, there is a chitlin strut that's been in. It's been in place since the late, early seventies. It's started by white people, hosted by white people. Thousands of people come my. I have on good information that you can smell the festival at the 50 miles marker. >> Merle Vaughn: I'm sure you can. Mm >> Adrienne Miller: So, you know, that's what that chitlins especially, that's the iconic food for, or the emblematic food for soul food, as this narrative of. That's the stuff that white people don't want. Right? Yeah. And that dish goes back to middle ages in Europe. In fact, a lot of people around the world eat intestines. So it's. You start to see this, like, how, this image of soul food has been manufactured. And. >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah, I was just going to say, speaking of chitlins, so, you know, both my parents were from Oklahoma, and my mother loved chitlins, and my father hated it. And she. He made her cook them outside in the garage because he. He could not stand the smell of them. And so my father and sister wouldn't go anywhere near them. I love them. with ketchup. >> Adrienne Miller: What? >> Merle Vaughn: I don't eat hot sauce, but I love chillin's with. With ketchup. Now, mind you, when I turn 16, I stopped eating all forms of red meat. So I haven't had, you know, beef or pork for a really, really long time. But I do have really fond memories of my mother and I sitting outside eating chitlins. Yes, with ketchup. Is that not a thing? >> Adrienne Miller: That is not a thing. I have never, ever heard that. >> Merle Vaughn: Try it. It's good. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, I don't think so. >> Merle Vaughn: It's good eating. It's good eating. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, I don't think so. >> Merle Vaughn: So what. What is your favorite soul food dish? >> Adrienne Miller: Well, if it. If it's limited to just one food, it would be greens. >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah. >> Adrienne Miller: So, I eat a mix of mustard and turnip greens with a smoked turkey. But, yeah, I could have greens a lot and be happy. but if you expand it to a full meal. Yeah. Bone in fried catfish with some greens and some coleslaw. Greens. >> Merle Vaughn: coleslaw? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, I like greens. I just love greens. >> Merle Vaughn: I'm not a coleslaw. Coleslaw doesn't do it for me. I thought you were going to say like black eyed peas and rice and cornbread and, you know. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, no, when I have, now when I have fried fish in barbecue, I like coleslaw for some reason. >> Merle Vaughn: Okay. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, I think of. Yeah, but yeah, no, and then my second thing is black eyed peas. I love black eyed peas with some smoke ham hawks, especially when the black eyed peas are creamy. >> Merle Vaughn: Mm. Clinton was on a strict diet because he had a heart blockage >> Adrienne Miller: I just have that. >> Merle Vaughn: Yeah. So in Clinton's, white house, he's from, he was from Arkansas. He's from Arkansas. Was there a lot of soul food? >> Adrienne Miller: You know, well, so by the, by the time I got there, know, because, I don't know if you remember this, but he had had a heart blockage, an artery blockage. So by the time I got there, he was actually transitioning to vegetarian, vegan. So he was on a strict diet. Now, you know, every once in a while there would be some, but he was on a strict diet, so there was a lot of things he couldn't have. There's been two drumbeats of criticism about soul food >> Merle Vaughn: So, speaking of the health of, of this food, how do you, you know, deal with that? You know, I mean, you know, is that something that concerns you? Do you try to cook it more healthy? Do you know, do you even talk about that in your books? >> Adrienne Miller: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I deal with it because to me, there's been two steady drumbeats of criticism towards soul food. One is that it's the white man's garbage. and then the second is that it's, it needs a warning label. Like, if you eat this on a regular basis, it's gonna kill you. So, you know what I do in my work and in my presentations, I just say, look, this is soul food, is celebration food. And I explained how it got to that point. And if you, if you eat the celebration food of any culture, it's not gonna be good for you because that's the food that's supposed to be eaten occasionally. And so I tell people, look, you just have to put this in context and understand. Fried chicken was something that people had maybe a few times, a week, but usually only once a week and only for a part of the year. It wasn't something like people grubbed on, you know, all year long. And today you can have fried chicken multiple times a day if you want. Yeah, barbecue was like a seasonal food. That was not something that you had a lot of. You can get that multiple times a day. The, glorious cakes and pies and all that was like once in a while food. So we've really changed our diet with the availability of these foods now, and they're less expensive now, or at least the cost of them. It was, yeah, the cost of them, but still, compared to, you know, how it was, because it, compared to the income people had back in the day, there was a reason why they weren't eating these foods on a regular basis because they just couldn't afford to do that. >> Merle Vaughn: and so what were they eating, what were they eating the rest of the time? >> Adrienne Miller: So it's very close to what we call vegan today. So, you know, it was pretty much greens, field peas, cornbread, seasonal vegetables. You know, if you had meat, it was just to season the vegetables. It wasn't an entree as we think of it. >> Adrienne Miller: people were getting by on just buttermilk and cornbread, you know, mixed together. so it's really like subsistence eating, but it was closer to vegan. And so the kind of the irony today is like they were eating less processed food. And so even though they were poor and their diet was meager, because I don't want to give the impression that they were, you know, well nourished, but at least what they were getting tended to be more healthy than the processed food. So the, so the people of status, that is, white people, were eating more of the processed food, like white bread, things with more refined sugar and things like that, and things out of a can and that kind of stuff. So it's really interesting to go back and look at what enslaved people were eating. >> Adrienne Miller: You know, first of all, what people were eating in West Africa, how that changes what enslaved people were eating, and then how food changes after emancipation, and especially as people move to urban areas, how the food changes again. So, I tell people, look, despite soul foods reputation, think about what nutritionists are telling us to eat. More dark leafy greens, more sweet potatoes, more fish, hibiscus and okra are now superfoods. These are all the building blocks of soul food. So if people were just to shift and just de emphasize meat and the desserts and just you know, balance out with the plant based stuff which is within the wheelhouse of soul food, you know, then you're on the road to a healthier diet. >> Merle Vaughn: Right? So efforts at air control have really hurt black barbecuers over time So let's talk about a healthier environment. So I know at least here, in LA, we have some really good, restaurants that do barbecue and they, you know, and you know, you can see the smoke from, from a mile away. And that's, you know, generally what makes it so good. But I guess it's not so great for the environment. How's that been dealt with on a policy basis? >> Adrienne Miller: Well, so this is very interesting that you bring this up. So efforts at air control have really hurt black barbecuers over time, mainly because of selective enforcement of those air, quality rules. So what you're finding is that, you know, a black barbecue joint may have started in the country at the edge of town, or just, you know, there weren't a lot of people around when that place started, so the smoke wasn't a problem. But then as the city grows towards that location or they get surrounded by new housing, then all of a sudden the new neighbors start complaining about that business and then there start to be more regular, you know, visits and other things. And this was a big deal with, in Los Angeles, especially in the eighties, as air quality was getting worse and worse, there was this concern about all kinds of, you know, sources for smoke. But it seemed like people were coming down heavily on, black barbecue restaurants. so there's a couple of suggestions. You know, more and more people are switching to cleaner burning gas, operations, so they're not burning charcoal. there are places that are opening up in urban areas, like in New York, blue smoke, which is not a black run restaurant, but a white owned, barbecue joint. They spent thousands and thousands of dollars to have an exhaust, system that basically scrubs a lot of the pollution that would normally be going up into the air. So there is an attention being played to that. And we've got a warming planet. So it's something to think about. But I think the bigger problem is what's being barbecued. especially meat. Beef, is now the it barbecue item. And really? Yeah. And raising cattle is the least sustainable, animal, you know, husbandry that's going on. So because I used to just lump all animals together. But then some agriculturalists, took me aside, they said, no, no, actually, you know, raising pigs and chicken is a lot more, has less impact on the environment than you think. There is an impact because of, you know, waste, runoff and all that kind of stuff. But, it's nothing compared to the amount of energy and other things that go into beef. but it just so happens that central Texas, is the most popular style of barbecue. So everybody wants brisket. And so the consumption of brisket is skyrocketed. Right. And so that has implications for our planet. So, you know, there, there are things being done and this is going to maybe gross out some of the people listening to this podcast. But we're at the point now. Yeah, we're at the point now where you can grow beef in a petri dish and you can 3d print meat. >> Merle Vaughn: Oh, my God. >> Adrienne Miller: So the question is, will consumers accept that? And if they do, it will have tremendous impacts for our environment and for animal welfare. I mean, you know, it would just revolutionize stuff. But that's just if people, if consumers will accept it. >> Merle Vaughn: You know, I have to tell you, I actually, like I said, I haven't eaten any real meat for, you know, decades now. And I tried once, I tried that beyond, meat, in a burger. And, you know, it tasted okay, but I got really sick. I mean, my stomach started cramping up, and I don't know, you know, what was, what's in it and what it was, you know, what. What it was made of. But I've never had any sense because I thought I was gonna die. >> Adrienne Miller: Sorry to hear that, sis. >> Merle Vaughn: and I've heard other people say that, too. >> Adrienne Miller: I have had beyond meat and impossible meat, and I've never had a bad reaction. And, I was actually impressed with the taste. I thought it tasted better than I expected. >> Adrienne Miller: I don't seek those things out, but, you know, if there was. If there was an impossible option on the menu, I would think about it. >> Adrienne Miller: So, yeah, I haven't had bad experiences. >> Merle Vaughn: You know, I read an interesting, you can tell we're just, like, spitballing here. I read. I read an interesting article yesterday about plastic in food. Have you. Have you seen any of those, of that research? >> Adrienne Miller: No, I just know that there's. There's plastic everywhere and just everywhere. so I haven't read about it in food, but I wouldn't be surprised that there's a. An appreciable amount of plastic in what we're eating, and then, therefore, that's ending up in our bodies. >> Merle Vaughn: Yes. And, you know, I read this because I try to be like, eat really clean and be really cautious. And I finished this article. I think it was a Yale article, and I finished this article and I just closed it and said, you know what? I'm gonna die from something. So, I mean, it's like, there's only so much you can do at this point, right? So, I'm not gonna eat meat, but I am definitely gonna keep. Keep eating good, food and soul food. So that's why I really appreciate you, brother. Juneteenth has supplanted local emancipation celebrations there can you talk to. Can you talk to us about Juneteenth and the politics of that and kind of how you feel about it, because I could tell you I have very mixed emotions about it being a, national holiday and everybody being all for it based on what it's really about. What's your thought and your position on Juneteenth? >> Adrienne Miller: well, first of all, I just have to say that I am surprised that Juneteenth is a federal holiday, but I think it's a tribute to Texans. Just. Texans are very proud of their culture, and so they. When they left Texas and transplanted in other places, they brought their customs and traditions with them. So much so that Juneteenth has supplanted local emancipation celebrations there. There's a whole collection of different dates that were celebrated for emancipation in different localities across the country. These were hyperloops, local traditions, and the dates meant something locally. Well, Juneteenth has just really. Just, really steamrolled all of those. So it's fascinating to me. but that said, if it's an opportunity to key people to activism and service, okay, but it's like Martin Luther King day. You know the saying with the Martin Luther King junior holidays, it's a day on, not a day off. you know, I kind of feel that way about Juneteenth. Do I? Do most people really understand what it is? No, I don't think so. And then the other thing is, if you look at the history of black people here, Juneteenth is actually not the latest day that people were. Got word that they were free. I mean, that there were. There were places in the country after June 19 that got the news that they were free. so, yeah, so when I do presentations on Juneteenth, and I always call it the latest word on freedom, just to explain, one, that juneteenth is not the last day that people got the news. And then two, every time there's a chance for black progress and acceptance in this country, there's always an exclusion or some kind of, escape hatch policy wise. you know, the emancipation proclamation? Well, it was only applied to the rebellious states, not all the slave holding states. the juneteenth order that General Granger gave actually said, y'all can't loiter here in the cities even though you're free. You got to go back and work for the plantation. they call them landlords, but those plantations, enslavers that you used to work for, you got to go back and work for them. Y'all can't just really. >> Merle Vaughn: I didn't know that. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. and then you know, the amendments that abolish slavery. 13th, amendment abolishes slavery, except for involuntary servitude if you have, a debt. Right. So there's all these exceptions created. And so that, that's what I get into in my presentations. And let's just, you know, black acceptance in this society is still, you know, something that hasn't been fulfilled yet. And so if we're gonna be, have at least one form of a more perfect union, we need to integrate black people into full, participation in the society economically, politically, and socially. >> Merle Vaughn: Amen, brother. Which brings me to religion. Um, Christianity does not have the influence that it once had Which brings me to religion. >> Merle Vaughn: So I know you're, you know, I know you're very entrenched in christian religion and grew up in the church and you know, how, you know, what are your. If you don't mind sharing and you don't have to if you don't want to because, you know, religion, politics and religion, a lot of times they say stuff that you just shouldn't discuss, especially around the table, the dinner table. Right. But, you know, m. What about today? I mean, though, you know, everything seems like. It seems like it's. Everything's being weaponized. you know, and religion seems to be kind of one of those things, at least to me. do you have, have you thought about that? Do you have thoughts on that? Or, you know, are you even willing to talk about it? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, no, I have, I have thoughts and opinions about it because I'm deeply concerned and I'll just stick to Christianity because that's the one I know the best. you know, I'm deeply disturbed by how Christianity, is basically branded now. And a lot of that is because attention is paid to the Christians who are, you know, saying hateful stuff or stuff that's intolerant. They get the press. There's so many Christians out there doing good works, trying to bring people together, trying to create an inclusive society. They just don't make the news. and so no, church attendance is way down. Christianity does not have the influence that it once had. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing in this sense, in that I believe that there are many paths to God. And so I know that Christianity is the one that I've embraced, but, I know very devout people who are Muslims, who are jewish, Buddhists, other people like that. So I think we need a more inclusive society in terms of spirituality. But I think, the thing that troubles me the most, though, is I do think, that there are a lot of people walking around who do not have their spiritual selves fully activated. And that I think that that is a state of being that I don't think is natural, because we are spiritual beings, whether we like it or not. We have souls. You know, there are things that separate us from other parts of creation. and the fact that people are not nurturing that and expressing that, you know, troubles me. And again, I'm sticking to Christianity. I know that church has hurt a lot of people, and that's why they're not, they don't have an active spiritual life, is because christian church, meaning Christians, not what Jesus actually said and how he lived his life, is hurting people and has hurt people and justified a lot of evil things. It justified slavery, for example. And so I think we Christians, who are people of peace and goodwill, have to reckon with that past and understand the hurt that's been caused by christians to other people. But that doesn't foreclose a future where we can all be loving towards one another. And if we just get back to what Jesus actually talked about, not, because a lot of the stuff that's happening now are christians talking about stuff that Jesus actually never talked about. >> Merle Vaughn: Right. >> Adrienne Miller: And, you know, voicing certainty and conclusions about that. So I think there needs to be a stepping back. And, I would, I would hope people would have a more comprehensive view of religion in this, in this country and in the world. and so, you know, I still embrace the church. I love the black church. I love my church community. and so it hurts me that people have been hurt by church, because that has not been my experience. Church has been a source of love and empowerment for me, and I wish other people would have that experience. Merle says stereotypes have affected his authenticity as a writer >> Merle Vaughn: Well, and that brings me to, you know, this podcast is called b's beyond stereotypes. And, you know, I think that there are a lot of stereotypes associated with Christianity, with religion, with lawyers, with all, you know, all kinds of things. And I guess, you know, I would ask you, you know, what stereotypes do you feel like you have had to deal with or overcome, if any, and how has that affected you and your authenticity? >> Adrienne Miller: I think the biggest one is that it's just the anti intellectual stereotype that you can't be black and be smart. That's the biggest one and the most consistent one that I've had to overcome. you know, that I can't be, you know, you can't really be a lawyer or write scholarly books about soul food and other things, because that doesn't square with being the real black experience you know, for a lot of people, the real black experience is what they see on tv or, you know, entertainers, athletes, you know, like, how many, when you think about media, you know, how many versions of black life do we really get offered? It seems like the overwhelming amount is a certain narrative about black life. Yeah, yeah. >> Merle Vaughn: It's drug, drug dealers and, athletes and, you know, kind of caricatures of families. >> Adrienne Miller: Right. And then profane. Right. I mean, I think most people expect a black person to be cursing all the time, or calling each other the n word. Right. And, you know, I watch these shows where that happens freely. And I'm thinking my black circles, that we don't do that. >> Merle Vaughn: Right, right. >> Adrienne Miller: So why is this presented as authentic? It's just one piece of that. But you know, how many? I can't, you know, I can't think of a movie about black people that didn't have a lot of profanity in it. I just can't think of one right now. >> Merle Vaughn: I don't watch them. I actually, you know, people will tell me, oh, Merle, you should, you should watch this or that. And I kind of say, well, does it have whatever in it? And they'll say, yes. Like, I'm not watching that. I also, I also don't like, I don't enjoy, entertainment about enslavement, you know, slavery and all that, you know, stuff. I just want to see black folks in shows being people, you know, like everybody else in a, you, know, everyday environment. They, you know, it just happens that this one's black and this one's hispanic and this, you know why? Yeah, I don't know what it's going to take to get there, but, well, you know, that's what I'd like to see. >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, well, a lot of this is a failure of imagination. So, you know, one of the problems, or I should say challenges, is for almost everything. There's a gatekeeper, right? There's a book editor, agent. There's somebody who's deciding, oh, this is what people want to see or consume. Ah. And so, you know, I had that problem with my books. I, can't tell you how many times, and this is even after winning a James Beard award, that people would tell me, oh, nobody wants to read that. >> Adrienne Miller: and, you know, I'm proving them wrong. But, you know, I think we're an exciting time. We're in an exciting time because now it's so much easier to get content out to the world without going through gatekeepers. Now, you may not get as much money, but you can put your stuff out and get the attention of people. So I think if we have more success stories of the very things that you and I would want to see, then, you know, becomes a money thing. Because once these gatekeepers see the dollars flowing, then they're like, oh, yeah, let's do that. Because then there's a, conservatism that. That creeps in, like, oh, we're just going to copy what's successful, you know? But the thing that needs to happen is that we, as people who want to see something different, when something different is created, we have to support it. So this is the rub. Like, I've seen good stories, good music, positive stuff, but it just doesn't get financially supported. And the people that are providing this content, it is a business. You know, they're not running a nonprofit, right? And so if we don't show up as consumers and. And show that there's a market for this, you know, the people that produce this content gonna be like, see, I told you. Nobody wants to watch that or read that or listen to that. >> Merle Vaughn: So, you know, we're almost out of time. I could talk. I could just have. I could talk to you forever, but, maybe we'll have to do that over a meal. If you ever come to LA. What advice do you have for young people who want to do something different I guess my last question is, you know, what encouragement or advice do you have for others, young folks or people of color or lawyers who want to do something different? like, you've created a brand for yourself. That's a very different. That's very different. how do you encourage people? Or would you encourage people to do that? And if so, how? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah, so, some of the things I would say we've already shared, but I'll say them again. so one of the things is, first of all, you have to do the work. It's so tempting to cut corners these days. and there are quite a few people who have succeeded cutting corners, but eventually that shows up. I think one of the reasons why I'm a successful brand is I think people trust me with the understanding. Like, okay, Adrian may not get it right 100% of the time, but, you know, for the most part, he's getting. He's getting it right, and then secondly, he's showing us how he's getting to those conclusions. So we can check his work and we can maybe interpret it differently, but at least he's trying to be transparent about how he reaches his conclusions so many times, especially in writing. About food. There's opportunities to just make up stuff because, this history is not well documented and people get away with just making up stuff. and I can't tell you how many times I've read something provocative in food writing. And the evidence is, well, it's because I told you so. And that's not my vibe. the second thing is, be nice to people because you just never, ever know what opportunities that other person may present to you down the road. I tell people to, you know, don't quit your day job, until that thing you love becomes, compensated. So you want to find your bliss, right? You want to find that thing to your soul, and find a way to let that flourish. But don't just quit everything and pursue that. You know, you need, you need to make sure you pay your bills. and then the last thing I tell people two things, is share, your dream. Because wonderful things have happened for me when I tell people, oh, I'm working on a book on soul food, or, hey, my next book's going to be on african american street food vendors. >> Adrienne Miller: Things have happened for me. And then, for those who have a faith tradition, I just say, believe in God and trust in God. >> Merle Vaughn: Keep the faith. Right? >> Adrienne Miller: Yeah. >> Merle Vaughn: Well, you know what? This has been fabulous. I really, I'm so glad that Google introduced me to you. >> Adrienne Miller: Yes. Oh, am I? >> Merle Vaughn: And that I found you. and, I can't wait to read your, you know, to read your next book. Hopefully, you know, when you come to LA, you'll look me up and we can go find some, some soul food together or some other type of food, for that matter. but I just want to thank you, Adrienne, for being here to B's with me today. And I want to say thank you to everyone for listening. Until the next episode, remember that everybody is different and different is good. Hit it. >> Adrienne Miller: That's what I'm talking about. Wait. Okay, now from the beginning. >> Merle Vaughn: We hope you enjoyed the stories shared in today's episode of B's beyond stereotypes. Join us next time when another authentic personality unleashes their uniqueness on the world.