Gcs in the House is a podcast spotlighting general counsels

>> Lena Guo: hi and welcome to gcs in the House, a podcast spotlighting general counsels. I'm your host, Lena Guo. In my conversations with gcs, we discuss how they got in the top legal seat, obstacles that they had to overcome along the way, and how they are tackling new challenges.

>> Speaker B: Hi, and welcome back. My guest today is John Simon, executive vice president, general counsel and chief ethics and compliance officer of Pacific Gas and Electric, one of the largest utility companies in the US. Established in 1905 and based in Oakland, California, PG and E is a publicly traded company that provides natural gas and electric service to approximately 16 million people throughout northern and central California. John joined PG and E in 2007 and has held several senior roles within the company, including interim CEO. Today, John talks to me about risk taking in his career, how his HR experience created the opportunity for him to become a GC, and what it was like to lead through crisis.


PG and E is a household name for many Californians

Let's begin. Good morning, John. Thank you so much for joining me today.

>> John Simon: Good morning, Lena.

>> Speaker B: I'm so excited to speak with you and to learn more about your career path. PG and E is a household name for many of us Californians, especially in northern California. I believe you've been with a company for 17 years now and you've held several leadership roles within the company, including interim CEO, as well as executive vice president, corporate services and human resources. I'm really interested in learning about how you got to where you are today. Let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up and how did you become a lawyer?

>> John Simon: Well, Lena, I grew up in the Chicago area, and both in the northern suburbs, sort of near northwestern, but.

>> John Simon: Also in the city where my father lived. and you assume that I have grown up.

>> John Simon: Some say that I haven't completely grown up.

>> John Simon: I think that on the question of how did I become a lawyer, it's.

>> John Simon: A good one, as I think about it. I think the seeds were planted pretty early for me on being a lawyer. I actually wanted to be a baseball player as a kid, but I didn't really have the athletic skills to make the major leagues. And then I thought I wanted to.

>> John Simon: Be an astronaut, but I definitely didn't.

>> John Simon: Have the math skills for that.

>> John Simon: And I do remember it was about.

>> John Simon: 6Th or 7th grade when in my social, studies class, we studied the scopes monkey trial and read inherit the wind. And we watched the movie with Spencer Tracy. And I remember thinking, you know, that's what I want to do. and it was right around that time, it was, I think, the election of now, this is going to date myself. The election for president between Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. And our social studies teacher had split.

>> John Simon: The class in two and had,

>> John Simon: Each side advocate for one of the president presidents who were running.

>> John Simon: And I I know I had Jimmy Carter, and I really love doing that.

>> John Simon: This is something that probably wouldn't happen in class today.

>> John Simon: But then, we were encouraged to.

>> John Simon: Sort of take sides in a political battle, and I really enjoyed that. And I think that stuck with me. In high school and college.

>> John Simon: I was definitely attracted to writing, to.

>> John Simon: Reading, to stories, way m more so than sort of the math and science sciences.

>> John Simon: And I think that solidified the ideas.

>> John Simon: That I wanted to use words and stories in a career. I also remember, and this really, influenced my thinking at the time. In the basement, my father had a book about the Loeb and Leopold trial. It's a famous murder trial in the 1920s in Chicago. And it was a trial where Clarence Darrow made maybe the seminal speech opposing the death penalty. and it's worth the read if people haven't read it. It's really an amazing speech that. It was really his closing argument in the trial that went on and on and on. But I was really taken with the way he could. Clarence Darrow would use words and tell stories and make an impassioned plea. And I think sort of all those things together some sort of way ultimately led me to law school.


Tell us a little bit about how you ended up in house

>> Speaker B: That's such an interesting turn, given that you originally wanted to be a baseball player and then an astronaut, and here you are, a general counsel, and you have been in so many different roles. I mean, you've really done the gamut for essentially, what a lawyer of, roles that a lawyer can take on. Right. You were an associate and then at a partner at a law firm, and you've even been an HR and legal and interim CEO. So, what, tell us a little bit about how you ended up in house. you have a background as a commercial litigator, is that right?

>> John Simon: That's right.

>> John Simon: Well, I think, you know, it's interesting.

>> John Simon: To think about that. I haven't thought about it that much.

>> John Simon: but I'm a big believer in.

>> John Simon: And I remember my.

>> John Simon: My dad used to tell me, you know, you're going to do different things and have different experiences and work with different people. Don't. Don't grab on to one thing. I think I was very stressed in college about what I was going to.

>> John Simon: Do, and it turns out that he was right.

>> John Simon: I I've had a bunch of different experiences. I think what led me in house, if I think about it, is sort of tying those together. You take sort of kernels and nuggets from each one, and it kind of leads to different thinking. So after law school, I worked well. I had a clerkship with a federal judge. I worked at a big law firm. I worked at a small trial law firm. I did quite a bit of pro bono work. I maximize the cases that the courts.

>> John Simon: Would assign for pro bono representation.

>> John Simon: We had panels in the various districts where I was working, and I really loved that work.

>> John Simon: And I also had a chance in.

>> John Simon: Those experiences to work around some really good business lawyers, at the big firms, at the small firms. These were the kind of lawyers who were sought out by clients to solve problems, you know, and the problems were all over the place.

>> John Simon: And I think it was the different.

>> John Simon: Experiences and sort of the problem solving.

>> John Simon: That I saw that led me to.

>> John Simon: Really want to go in house. I didn't actively seek an in house job. I got a bit lucky when a former colleague at the large law firm I worked at, which was proscauer Rose, became a general counsel. And he called me up and said, hey, you know, I'm general counsel of this company. We went public. This is in the mid, mid nineties.

>> John Simon: And we really need a generalist to.

>> John Simon: Do everything that I can't do.

>> John Simon: He was a legal department of one, an amazing lawyer.

>> John Simon: His name is Jim Kaufman, who's a general counsel today somewhere. But Jim called me and said, you know, I'm going to do the corporate transactional stuff, but I need someone to do everything else. And at this time, I was a partner in a firm, but thought, wow.

>> John Simon: That really appealed to me because of.

>> John Simon: The opportunity to do everything. when you're in house, everyone's your client.

>> John Simon: And I remember thinking when I was.

>> John Simon: With my firm in litigating cases, we would litigate cases for months, if not years.

>> John Simon: And at the end of that, I.

>> John Simon: Was always left thinking, wanting a little bit. We learned all these things in this.

>> John Simon: Litigation case, things that maybe could have.

>> John Simon: Gone differently from the beginning. Had they gone differently, maybe we wouldn't have wound up in that big litigation. But oftentimes the clients were ready to move on. They weren't really interested in working with me as outside counsel on starting to fix the problems in the first place. And so when Jim called about the in house job and sort of adding all these things up together, I sort of jumped at the chance. And I moved from a law firm as a partner. I was in Rochester, New York, out to Denver to be the number two in the law department of two of this public company that was a technology company. I really knew nothing about their business, but given that chance, I grabbed it.

>> John Simon: That's what led me into a company.

>> John Simon: but then I'll say, Lena, my path to general counsel was definitely not Lenny or you.

>> John Simon: You mentioned a couple of things.

>> John Simon: So I started in the company as the number two in the legal department. And at one point, after a couple.

>> John Simon: Years, I moved into HR and I.

>> John Simon: Left the law department. Ultimately, I went back to law after a number of different positions, but that's how I got in house. how I ended up as general counsel or in the HR functions, even a bit of a different story.

>> Speaker B: Yes, and I would love to hear more about that.


You made a transition from law firm partner to in house counsel

I just have so many questions in response to what you have just said. You not only made a move in house, but into an industry that you didn't know much about and also relocated geographically. So from New York to Colorado and from a. Being a law firm partner to in house counsel, that is a lot of change. There doesn't seem to be many law firm partners who make that in house transition. Looking back, what was that? What was the transition like?

>> John Simon: I have to think about my mindset at the time I made that move.

>> John Simon: But sitting here today, I think, first.

>> John Simon: Of all, I was a partner, but.

>> John Simon: Trying to think of how old I.

>> John Simon: Was, you know, I had been a partner for a couple years.

>> John Simon: I was in my mid thirties, early.

>> John Simon: Early to mid thirties.

>> John Simon: I had a young family, and I.

>> John Simon: Did have this feeling that I was really just at the beginning of my career. I think going back to the experiences of working for a judge and in big law and small law, and public.

>> John Simon: Interest and commercial, I really came to.

>> John Simon: Form a view that I was only as good as the experiences I was having.

>> John Simon: I know I've always had that feeling.

>> John Simon: I don't really know where that comes from. I thought that being a partner in trying cases and big litigation was going well. I still had a lot to learn, but I guess I felt like I.

>> John Simon: Wanted more varied experiences than that.

>> John Simon: The job in Denver offered an opportunity, a little bit of a sky's the.

>> John Simon: Limit situation that we're talking about. A company that was relatively young, one.

>> John Simon: That had gone public just a couple of years before. The opportunity where everyone's your client, and to work on solving problems on the front end before they bloom into much bigger issues, I found really appealing. And it was something that the business people in this company really were looking for. So I definitely, sitting here today, realize, looking back on that, that I took.

>> John Simon: A risk in doing that.

>> John Simon: I gave up the certainty and the steadiness of the partnership for the uncertainty of, a new company. But I found that exciting. And I thought the value, and I've seen this in my career a couple of times with changes.

>> John Simon: The value isn't always about the money.

>> John Simon: It's about the experience, the people you're going to be working with, the problems you're going to see, the opportunities you're given.

>> John Simon: To me, that's the value in your.

>> John Simon: Career, in the movement, and what you learned and how good you can become.

>> John Simon: Because you get good at something by doing it. And the more experience you're given or.

>> John Simon: You have, and the chances you have.

>> John Simon: To do is worth its weight in gold.

>> John Simon: And I know I felt that then.

>> John Simon: Looking back on it now, I'm glad.

>> John Simon: I did it, but I think that's my thinking. It was a little bumpy, to answer.

>> John Simon: The second part of your question, going in house. It was a little bit of anything goes.

>> John Simon: This was a technology company. This was at the very early stages of its growth, so Wild west wouldn't.

>> John Simon: Be true because they had pretty strong governance.

>> John Simon: But in terms of the business prospects, it was early, and I felt a little unsteady with that. I think, again, I needed to get the experience of doing, meeting people, building relationships in the company.

>> John Simon: That went a long way to make.

>> John Simon: Me feel like I was in the right place. And then from there, you know, things just took off a bit.

>> Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. It's still tough to wrap my head around it, especially because it did sound like, given the stable situation that you had at the law firm, this could have, was themed very much like a leap of faith in many ways. And when it was just you and Jim and you were recruited to do everything else, so to speak, as a.


As a commercial litigator, was it a steep learning curve

As a commercial litigator, was it a steep learning curve? What were some of the in house matters that you had to handle, and manage, and what were some of the areas that you had to really get up to speed on or leverage outside counsel on?

>> John Simon: It was a pretty steep learning curve.

>> John Simon: And I'll explain a little why that is.

>> John Simon: I think I've learned through these changes.

>> John Simon: That I've had that a lot of the learnings can feel daunting if you.

>> John Simon: Get intimidated by technical rules, but that ultimately, a lot of lawyering and business counseling comes down to understanding, listening, and common sense. That's easier said than done, but I do believe that to be true. So the company I went to in.

>> John Simon: Denver, which is called TTEC today, but.

>> John Simon: Was called Teletech holdings at the time.

>> John Simon: It's still a public company, is, and.

>> John Simon: Was in the business of running call.

>> John Simon: Centers, data centers, providing software and technology.

>> John Simon: To support customer care operations in many different forms.

>> John Simon: And it was a very, to this.

>> John Simon: Day, as a very far flung international business that was operating in many countries.

>> John Simon: So labor and employment was very, you.

>> John Simon: Know, was a central focus of the lawyering.

>> John Simon: Not the only.

>> John Simon: There was a number of commercial issues, the ones you might imagine with a public company and it that had, you know, 20,000 or more employees. I had to learn a lot about doing business in other countries.

>> John Simon: I did need to rely on outside.

>> John Simon: Counsel in country to understand things like labor and employment rules that are very different in the United Kingdom and Australia than they are in the US around the rules of labor organization, which are very different in, for example, south american countries.

>> John Simon: I did work pretty hard to build.

>> John Simon: A network of law firms in those.

>> John Simon: Countries that both I could rely on.

>> John Simon: But also could communicate well with me as an American who had understanding of maybe how we do things here, but not how we do things there. There were a number of issues, transactional issues that I had, didn't have training.

>> John Simon: In, but with Jim's help and guidance.

>> John Simon: And we were able to hire some others to help us as well.

>> John Simon: In house, that I learned, around.

>> John Simon: indemnities and warranties and commercial insurance, I needed to learn that working with Jim, who was an outstanding disclosure lawyer, I just, by watching and helping, I learned a lot about the rules around disclosure, and the SEC. These are things I deal with quite a bit today, but at the time I didn't.

>> John Simon: So time, I think there same was.

>> John Simon: A lot of learning by watching, by doing teletech.

>> John Simon: Being an entrepreneurial company was willing to.

>> John Simon: Give me, you know, some space to figure things out.

>> John Simon: And there was quite a community of.

>> John Simon: Interest there and really growing the business. So it was an environment that was rich in learnings, I think I just was very hungry to do that,

>> John Simon: Again, where that comes from, you know.

>> John Simon: I was the kid who couldn't do any pull ups in gym class. I don't know, I didn't read business books, but I found it very appealing, very relationship driven, and I liked it.

>> Speaker B: And you mentioned relationship driven. Was that part of the reason behind your transition from in house counsel to becoming the SVP or of HR at TTEC?

>> John Simon: I think that had a lot to do with it. That's an interesting story in and of itself. So I was basically the deputy general counsel at the time that I moved in to run HR at, Teletech.

>> John Simon: We were a small law department.

>> John Simon: But as I said, m many of our legal issues, much of the work I was doing around business counseling involved labor and employment domestically, internationally, in some form or another. And we had a CEO who was the founder of the company named Ken.

>> John Simon: Tuchman, who's still the CEO, who is really an amazing leader, who invented the business, and who had a passion for really building things.

>> John Simon: And, you know, he pushed, he pushed.

>> John Simon: Hard, and he wanted always the best.

>> John Simon: And I think Ken was very disappointed in HR. I think he felt like it was very rules based, not possibility based.

>> John Simon: And he saw the value in recruiting and training and in almost offering those.

>> John Simon: HR practices as services to teletex clients. So he really wanted something different. And I was the lawyer who was working on, a lot of the issues, and I had ideas that from time to time I would share.

>> John Simon: And there came a point where Ken.

>> John Simon: Or Jim said to me, I don't remember which one, you know, why don't you do it? You know, that's a good idea. Who, why don't you do it?

>> John Simon: And I didn't see that coming. And it caused me a lot of.

>> John Simon: Pause because I was reluctant to leave the law practice, even in house. I felt like my identity is a lawyer. I've trained to be a lawyer.

>> John Simon: But Jim Kaufman, again, the general counsel really encouraged me.

>> John Simon: and just like moving from Rochester to Denver, I took a risk, I took a leap. I thought that, well, this is different, but this is when doors close, doors open. I'm going to leave the law, but.

>> John Simon: I'm now going to be looking at.

>> John Simon: These things differently, working with different people.

>> John Simon: And I was not trained in HR.

>> John Simon: Ah, I was trained as a lawyer who dealt with HR issues.

>> John Simon: but I.

>> John Simon: It was difficult, but it was exciting. And I look back on my career because I'm way more towards the end of it than the beginning now.

>> John Simon: And there were a number of times.

>> John Simon: I think I was willing to take a risk like this, so I did it. I quickly realized that I, not being trained in HR, that I needed real HR pros around me. And I think I set out to build a function that had that expertise.

>> Speaker B: And your experience? Transitioning to HR is very uncommon, at least from what I've seen nowadays, though, what I have seen is that more general counsels are being tasked with taking on the HR function, so they're wearing both hats.


What words of advice do you have for these gcs who inherit an HR department

What words of advice do you have for these gcs? Who all of a sudden have to have inherited, an HR department, even if temporarily.

>> John Simon: Understanding the differences between the functions is important. There is a lot of commonality, but there's important differences.

>> John Simon: One of the things that needs to.

>> John Simon: Be managed, for example, is just practical questions like, if you're the general counsel running HR, when are your communications privileged and when are they not? And having some good structure around that to make sure that you're not claiming privilege when the communications aren't for purposes of providing legal advice. I think the practical thing that I learned and I mentioned is to make sure that on the HR side of.

>> John Simon: Things, you have HR professionals who you.

>> John Simon: Trust, you know, and who you let be HR professionals. In other words, I think HR is in art, and it's, really important. I've certainly learned that and believe that.

>> John Simon: And there's certain freedoms to design people.

>> John Simon: Programs, career development, creating an environment.

>> John Simon: At a company, that's one where people.

>> John Simon: Feel they can be their best selves.

>> John Simon: To raise issues about anything.

>> John Simon: Having an HR practice that encourages sort of the free marketplace of ideas in a respectful way, I could go on.

>> John Simon: But you want to nurture those things.

>> John Simon: And make sure that legal constraints that are necessary around compliance and risk management don't overly bleed into the creativity that it takes to build a, you know, a really thriving people practice. I'd get advice around that. I came to really depend on the.

>> John Simon: HR pros to teach me, really,

>> John Simon: Wanted to create an HR environment where people felt free to raise issues, to disagree, to tell me I was missing the point. I think just having that sort of open culture on the people side is really important. Not to say you wouldn't want it on the legal side either, because you do, but I just think they're slightly different and you want to honor those differences.


You started out in HR and then moved back into legal

>> Speaker B: Thank you for that insight, that as lawyers, folks don't necessarily think about, even though HR and legal do work hand in hand. But as you mentioned, there are some very different considerations in how the departments are run. And so you eventually made the transition to PG and e, but you, when you made that transition, it was, in an HR capacity, and then you eventually moved back into legal. So tell me a little bit about how you were able to make that transition.

>> John Simon: That's true.

>> John Simon: That that's what happened. And the interesting thing is, I really believe that it's the HR experience that equipped me to be the general counsel and probably created the opportunity for me to move back into legal. I know it sounds a little backwards.

>> Speaker B: Interesting.

>> John Simon: but I really believe that because.

>> John Simon: What the HR job did for me.

>> John Simon: First of all, it was a bigger platform in terms of the number of people I was dealing with. As the deputy general counsel at the Denver company, I certainly was working across the company. But when you're running HR and you're overseeing people based programs around compensation and talent management and succession planning, and you're running the process around promotions and benefits, when you're looking at how to build a talent pipeline, you're just working across the company, building relationships, meeting people, seeing issues in ways that as lawyer, I really wasn't certainly not going anywhere near the depth I was as the HR chief. Moreover, as the HR chief.

>> John Simon: I was.

>> John Simon: Dealing with the board of directors in a different way, not just as legal advisor, but as people and culture advisor. And so fast forward, I'm doing this at Teletech. I'm running HR for maybe five or six years.

>> John Simon: And even during that period, I came.

>> John Simon: Back to run legal as the interim general counsel, while I was also running HR and helped the transition to a new general counsel at TTAC. But it's true, I was becoming an HR person, and that's how my resume spoke to me. as reluctant as I was to.

>> John Simon: Give up the law, I felt like.

>> John Simon: I was now an HR professional.

>> John Simon: And PG and e came calling,

>> John Simon: For the HR job, not the legal job. And it turned out that this was around late 2006.

>> John Simon: The company was PG and e was.

>> John Simon: Looking at going through a significant.

>> John Simon: Growth period and potentially looking at whether PG and e might operate out of state, which turned out, we didn't do, but they were interested in somebody.

>> John Simon: Who had HR, ah, background in a.

>> John Simon: Company with a large workforce, which teletech by then, I think was up to about 50,000 employees. So I came to PG and e to run HR in 2007.

>> John Simon: And I was attracted to PG and E because it was a highly regulated.

>> John Simon: Business in an industry I knew nothing about. I mean, utilities and energy was very different than technology and call centers.

>> John Simon: I liked the opportunity to be in one state.

>> John Simon: I was traveling all over the world.

>> John Simon: With Teletech, and PG and e is.

>> John Simon: northern and central California. And it was, again, it was sort of another one of those risk pivot moments where things were going well at Teletech, I dreaded telling my boss I was going to leave. But this opportunity to try something completely.

>> John Simon: Different in a different place, I just.

>> John Simon: Found really appealing and attractive.

>> John Simon: And HR at PG and E was.

>> John Simon: Very interesting in all those kind of people programs that I was talking about.

>> John Simon: As well as a, very interesting.

>> John Simon: Labor practice is two thirds of PG and e workforce in California is unionized. And the company has really deep partnerships with our unions.

>> John Simon: And the opportunity to work with union.

>> John Simon: Leaders just was something that was, I thought, really interesting. There was a lot of policy around that. And, But I do think that over time, my experience running HR led me back to legal.


Teletech was hired as PG and E's general counsel in 2017

I'll pause here so I can take a breath, but I think there are reasons for that which I can share.

>> Speaker B: Yes. And so far, it sounds like what you have been chasing in your career really has been just the challenge and the opportunity to learn. Because the recurring theme I hear is you were unafraid of risks, taking risks. granted, they were educated risks and just looking for areas in which you could continue to stretch and grow. And this is the second time that you have jumped into an industry which you have known, which you had known nothing about, which is really, really interesting. So, yes. How did you end up getting tapped to be PG and E's general counsel when you were still in the HR function?

>> John Simon: Well, I like it, Teletech. Working HR at, ah, PG and e.

>> John Simon: Gave me a really broad perspective of the business.

>> John Simon: I mean, I would say an ultra deep perspective, because you're working with leaders.

>> John Simon: Of, many different functions on, you know, these really important programs, you know.

>> John Simon: Completely centered around people, whether it's hiring, talent development, succession planning, you know, the.

>> John Simon: Whole range, union negotiations, benefits, retirement, you know, everything.

>> John Simon: I mean, everything the company's touching finds its way to HR one way or the other. And so I think that really accelerated my learning of the business. I was out and about in the business a lot, meeting with employees for various reasons. I was going to work sites. I not only got to know things faster, but I think I got a perspective on what was going well and what needed improvement, very quickly. The other thing the HR position enabled me to do, and I think many business positions could do this, not just HR, but it really accelerates the relationship building. I did need to work with people, with leaders in the company to really understand what their pain points were, what needed changing, what they needed more of. And it's just in a way I don't think I would have done had I started as, as the lawyer. the other thing it did was I was working closely with the board of directors on all these people related issues. So I got to know them in a way that was a bit more.

>> John Simon: Fluid and open than just maybe the.

>> John Simon: Usual corporate governance or legal issues that.

>> John Simon: A board might interface with the general counsel on.

>> John Simon: so things at HR were moving along. And at some point at PG and E, I picked up some additional responsibilities, on the business side, which included overseeing the communications team and the regulatory team. And then there was a transition at PG and E, where now, this was 2017. So I came to PG and e.

>> John Simon: In 2007, I was running HR and then these additional corporate services functions till early 2017.

>> John Simon: And when there was a CEO change. The outgoing CEO who I had worked for is the head of HR, and the incoming CEO who I'd worked with as she ran one of our large operating groups, asked me if I would make the transition to law. and I had been building succession.

>> John Simon: Plans behind me in HR, and would.

>> John Simon: I be open to do well, I sit here today and say, they said, would I be open to do it? I think it would have been a bit more directive. We want you to do it. you've got good successors behind you. Let's make the change.

>> John Simon: And I have to tell you that.

>> John Simon: I, was as nervous about going back to law in that role as I was leaving law and going to HR, because by then, in 2017, I.

>> John Simon: Had spent the last twelve or so.

>> John Simon: Years, which were very formative years for me, if not more. I guess it would be more than that in this HR capacity. And I thought, wow, I'm still licensed to practice law, but I'm not up to speed on my cles. I've got a, you know, I haven't been running the legal function for such a long time, right? And actually, I was. I had never been the general counsel outright before. I had been the interim at my last company, and it certainly trained in it and been around it.

>> John Simon: But I think, you know, it was.

>> John Simon: Another risk taking moment, I guess, in.

>> John Simon: My career, and one that my managers.

>> John Simon: Had confidence in me. And I think their confidence, gave me some comfort that it was okay to make the change.

>> John Simon: And so that happened.

>> John Simon: And in March 2017, after I cleared and came up to speed on my cles, I became the general counsel at.

>> Speaker B: PG and E. That's incredible, because senior level attorneys have asked me, if, if they transition into a business role, how difficult would it be to come back into the law practice or to be pinged for an attorney role? So it's wonderful that in your case, you've proven that it's possible. As you mentioned, it must have been very daunting, given you had left the law practice for almost a decade. Ah. What helped you transition back, aside from getting caught up to your cles? Was it just getting, additional help from outside counsel and relying on the legal team. Initially.

>> John Simon: I think it was all of those things. I will say this. I wasn't distant from the legal issues at the company. I was around them enough. And as a member of the executive.

>> John Simon: Team, participating around meetings enough that I.

>> John Simon: Think, at least, I don't want people to think it was like a green. I was a green pepper and was going to become a banana. I was adjacent to legal, and I did certainly have good relationships, at least I thought, with a number of the lawyers in the legal department. That said, no one ever said this to me, but I always wondered whether the legal team was a bit skeptical of me. The GC, who I took over for, was a pro, and I do think they might have had some skepticism. So.

>> John Simon: I did rely on, heavily on.

>> John Simon: The pros that I felt we had in the department. We, you know, PG and E is a place where historically, we've had a strong legal department of highly tenured lawyers.

>> John Simon: We have that today.

>> John Simon: And I also knew, and probably my experience taking over at HR, at Teletech helped me where there, I knew I needed to surround myself with the pros and give them plenty of room and listen and be open to feedback on what I was doing right and not doing right. I needed to do that at PG.

>> John Simon: And E. I was a known quantity.

>> John Simon: At the company, so at least I had, I, think, a fairly good understanding of the company, where it was, the path we were on.

>> John Simon: But I did rely a lot on.

>> John Simon: Others, especially certain outside counsel that I work with to this day on some of our most difficult things turned out.

>> John Simon: To be enormously helpful business advisors and coaches for me.

>> John Simon: and I was very, very open to that. But I definitely felt the stress going back. I took it very seriously, as I should, but I spent a lot of time on it, wanting to make sure that I was doing the right things. I probably overdid it, in some ways. And as I said earlier, Lena, I really think it was the HR experience.

>> John Simon: In hindsight, that really equipped me to be the general counsel to the fullest.

>> John Simon: Because that HR experience at PG and e really helped me develop deep relationships with others and a, really good understanding of where the business was.

>> John Simon: And I think to be effective as.

>> John Simon: The general counsel, the more I can.


Align my work and understanding with the business priorities, the risks

>> John Simon: Align my work and understanding with the.

>> John Simon: Business priorities, the risks, the issues, the people, the more effective I can be to deploy legal, not just to solve problems we already have, but to work on things before they become problems and make the company a better place. I mean, that really motivates me, and.

>> John Simon: I think sort of the HR experience.

>> John Simon: Really kind of crystallized that for me. Although in 2017, I don't think I realized this now. Today I do, and maybe that's what my managers saw in me and why they asked me to resume in legal.

>> Speaker B: That makes sense. It sounds like the HR and business experience on the business side really give you a much broader view, of really kind of how to best do your work, even as an attorney. and when you. When you jumped into the GC role, it. It was, I think, looking back, probably the. The beginning of a turbulent period at the company.


You stepped in as interim CEO during period of turbulence at PG and E

ah, which, you know, in California, we know there were. There were wildfires in 2017 and 2018, and you ultimately became interim CEO, ah, for the first half of 2019. So can you tell us a little bit about your experience as interim CEO during a period of turbulence at PG and E?

>> John Simon: Yes, and I'm still thinking about it.

>> John Simon: it all happened to me relatively.

>> John Simon: Quickly and with so much urgency. I don't think I've had a whole lot of time to reflect on it, but I'm now in a place where I have a bit more time. I think the context for this is important.

>> John Simon: I became general counsel in March of.

>> John Simon: 2017 or February, sometime around the first quarter.

>> John Simon: The first round of significant wildfires was.

>> John Simon: In October of 2017, followed by a series of them afterwards.

>> John Simon: And it would be a huge understatement.

>> John Simon: To say it was a difficult time for the company, for our customers, for the state, for the wildfire victims. I'm very gratified that today, that period also involved our filing for bankruptcy. And I'm very gratified that we're out of bankruptcy on a positive path. And I'm.

>> John Simon: I should also say I feel so.

>> John Simon: Fortunate to work with the amazing current CEO, Patti Poppy, that we have. So we're in a very different place today than we were when your question starts, which is in 2019. And as you mentioned, we were in a wildfire crisis. PG and E was, and a number of the devastating wildfires that you referred to started at PG and E's facilities. So there were billions and billions of dollars in claims, more than the.

>> John Simon: Company could pay, and that's what led.

>> John Simon: To the filing of bankruptcy, which was very public. There's a book, by Kathryn Blunt of the Wall Street Journal called California burning that goes into great detail about this period.

>> John Simon: And we actually used it as a.

>> John Simon: Source for learning in our company in our annual ethics and compliance training. So I often think about that book and the story around this from an outside view, since I'm so close to it on the inside. But as mentioned, PG and e filed bankruptcy was very public in early 2019, and I stepped in as interim CEO right before that happened.

>> John Simon: So my first task was to lead.

>> John Simon: The company through the filing. And I. You know, your question on the experience.

>> John Simon: Of it, I. I'm still thinking about it. I don't know that I can pick.

>> John Simon: The best words to describe it, but sitting here today, I would describe it as being very stressful. I felt the weight of the events, the concerns, the fears, the criticisms, the.

>> John Simon: Scrutiny, and the pressure of getting it right with little margin, for error, the. I could go on here, but.

>> John Simon: I also felt, and it was interesting, the support of the thousands of employees who stood with me. I think they saw, they knew we were in a crisis. They saw sort of this regular guy person who. I like to think of myself as that, but I wasn't trained as a CEO, I wasn't trained in operations, but there I was. And I felt like, employees stood with me in our commitment to do the right things, to get on a path, to make things better, to make amends, to rebuild the company, because those are the only things you can do, you know, you need to pick a different path. And, you know, I'm so gratified we're on that path today.

>> John Simon: But at the time, I felt the weight of it, and I, like I.

>> John Simon: Had in my other roles, realized that we needed to bring together people, be very open with them about what was going on, and really get our best thinking, encourage our best thinking, leave some space for that to start to rebuild and get on a path. And that's. That's what the experience was for me. I, I had lots of late nights, lots of worries. I have to say I'm glad I'm not in that role today. I think it's also made me a better general counsel for having gone through it, but it's not something I would have wished for.

>> Speaker B: And having been through a period in which I hope most people will not have to go through.


What were some of the learnings about leading through crisis for you

What were some of the learnings, coming out of it?

>> John Simon: Well, they're definitely for me, anyhow, lots.

>> John Simon: Of learnings about leading through crisis, and.

>> John Simon: I've seen more than one of them. So I do feel like I'm gaining some perspective on this. I think particularly if you're the one in a leadership position around it, if you're the general counsel or you're in the legal team or you're anywhere else in an organization, where you.

>> John Simon: Have responsibility that's tied to crisis. I think the key learning for me.

>> John Simon: Is around authenticity and being yourself, especially when people are worried about what's going.

>> John Simon: On and letting your guard down enough to provide the straight talk about where.

>> John Simon: We are, you know, where.

>> John Simon: What happened, what's coming, and the whys behind those whats. I think doing it in an unscripted way is. Is very important.

>> John Simon: I had many times during the interim CEO period where I was the person on the stage in front of lots and lots of people, having to deliver news. And I quickly learned, though nervous, that I would fumble it or say the.

>> John Simon: Wrong thing, that the answer was being.

>> John Simon: Myself and not using a script and speaking with others. Like I wanted to be spoken to, and showing empathy and doing that.

>> John Simon: So, absolutely.

>> John Simon: It's key when you're in crisis to get an understanding of where things are and what the plan is going forward, because people do need to understand what's coming, and they do need to have.

>> John Simon: The confidence that the right things are.

>> John Simon: Going to come, even if you don't have all the answers. I think that's another learning.

>> John Simon: I think I've, in my HR job.

>> John Simon: I've worked with people who, and.

>> John Simon: Executives in particular, who are afraid that.

>> John Simon: When they talk, they might not know the answer and they'll look stupid. I think you have to quickly get over that problem. I do think you need to do the work to try to understand as best you can, but it's okay to say you don't know. And thank you for pointing out what I don't know. I'm going to go find out, because that's a good question. It's really important, too, to ask for help in crisis, that it does take a village, usually of different people with different perspectives.

>> John Simon: there's an interesting thing I learned.

>> John Simon: In crisis, too, and you don't, you know, you don't wish a crisis for anybody. But crisis does interrupt thinking, because it gets you quickly focused on what's most important and enables you, because you don't have the time to waste, time to clear out the brush. And new ideas tend to come out fairly quickly, maybe from areas you wouldn't expect. I know it did for PG and E, where we started to look at things differently, which ended up becoming real engineering breakthroughs for the company and very much strengthened our, safety profile. So I learned that. I learned on the need to communicate even when you don't feel like it. There was plenty of times when the last thing I wanted to do was.

>> John Simon: Get on the all employee call or.

>> John Simon: Get up on the stage. But it's really important to keep the.

>> John Simon: Drumbeat of communication going so that people.

>> John Simon: Don'T worry that there's nothing to say, which is what quickly can happen. I think another thing I learned was, don't wait for the questions to be asked. Go ahead and answer them ahead of time. Between yourself and others that you can work with, you probably know what are on people's minds. And I really learned it's really helpful just to go and start to address them instead of wait for them to be asked. And usually the context for the question is worry and stress. You can really help relieve people's stress and show empathy by, reaching out.

>> John Simon: And working with them where they are.

>> John Simon: Instead of waiting for them, to come for you. I guess the last thing I'd say, because I have a lot of learnings, I'm still collating what all those are. I learned the importance of focusing on my own health. I think during those stressful times, there were plenty of times when I didn't put my health first, which sometimes is.

>> John Simon: Hard to do, but taking some time.

>> John Simon: For myself, getting some physical exercise, turned out to be enormously important. I know that seems very basic, and I know our doctors tell us that, and oftentimes our coworkers tell us that. But it's easy to not do that when you're caught up in the emergency, and it takes a lot of initiative, at least it did for me, to overcome that.

>> Speaker B: Thank you.


What do you do to decompress nowadays after working long hours

And to that last point, I think, especially for lawyers, it's very easy to just be working around the clock or trying to constantly attend to clients needs and demands. And especially when you were facing that period of crisis, I can only imagine you were probably working 20 plus hour days, for weeks or months on end. So, very easy to experience burnout or health issues. And just to wrap up our conversation, what do you do to decompress nowadays?

>> John Simon: Well, I try to do different things. I'm getting much better at it, including making time for my family. I think that's another thing I put in the backseat, which, isn't a good thing. And, so I prioritize. Just time to talk with my wife and my wife, Carol, and my daughters, Isabel and Mia. I love to run.

>> John Simon: I have been a runner most of.

>> John Simon: My adult life, and during the really difficult times, I stopped doing that, and so I'm doing that again, although.

>> John Simon: It'S a bit slow going.

>> John Simon: So I'm giving myself some grace, to work up to that.

>> John Simon: I love to to just read and.

>> John Simon: Look at books and used books and, you know, I'd say I love to do things that take my mind to a different place that, you know, whether it's walking, running, reading, connecting with old friends that I knew way back when and they knew me way back when and remind me that I'm that person and I'm stupid and goofy and all that stuff. It's really good for me, just to create opportunity to reconnect with stuff that makes me smile and there's different things that do that, but I'm making time for that. I think there's a lot of love in the world and it's just there. You got to sometimes find it a bit. And I've worked at that and I feel very good about that today where now I'm towards the end of my.

>> John Simon: Career and I feel like all these.

>> John Simon: Things have made me better at what I do, as though sometimes they've been very difficult in the moment.

>> Speaker B: Thank you so much.


Lguo: John's career and story has been truly incredible

John, your career and story has been truly incredible. I think, especially given what you've been through with PG and E and just that period of intense turmoil and that you were able to help the company through and get the company out of bankruptcy, and be where you are today. It's been really wonderful to hear, and I'm so glad that you have found more time in recent years to be with family and to do some of the things that can bring you a lot of joy. Thanks again so much for your time today. I've really, really enjoyed listening, learning about your career and getting a glimpse into your career and your life.

>> John Simon: Well, thanks so much for having me.

>> Speaker B: Thank you.

>> Lena Guo: Thanks so much for listening to GC's in the house. I hope you enjoyed this episode and will join me next time for an in depth discussion with another general counsel. I, welcome your feedback and recommendations for guests. You can reach me at lguo global.com. Please also reach out if you have any questions or comments about today's episode. Until next time.