B's Beyond Stereotypes is a podcast about lawyers using authentic voices

>> Speaker A: Hit it. That's what I'm talking about. Wait.

>> Merle Vaughn: Okay, now from the beginning.

>> John Eno: Welcome to.

>> Merle Vaughn: B's Beyond Stereotypes, a podcast about lawyers using their authentic voices to change the world.

>> John Eno: I went to Japan and, I was kind of going to, going to find my roots and all that. I went back there and in that year it was pretty clear. I understood that I really wasn't, really wasn't japanese. I was american. and I ended up ending up working in Afroposcope, ended up working over there for a couple years. And that's what I really kind of, you know, I got, I got, this was when I was working my prior firm, worked in the Tokyo office for a couple years and they, at the end of my time, they said, no, hey, would you consider staying here and living in Japan? but you could be the managing partner of the office. And I ended up thinking long and hard about it and turned them down. There's a number of reasons why I turned them down, but more than anything because I said, you know what, I don't want to spend the rest of my life here. Because at the end of the day, I'm not japanese, I'm american and I really want to go back to America. So anyways, I ended up going back to, going back to LA and, end up settling there.


Merle Vaughn welcomes John Eno to B's beyond stereotypes

>> Merle Vaughn: Welcome to B's beyond stereotypes. I'm your host, Merle Vaughn. Here to B's. With me today is John Eno, my friend whose story I find fascinating and who will no doubt inspire all of you to embrace your authenticity. Hey, John, how you doing?

>> Speaker A: Hey, Merle.

>> John Eno: It's great to B's with you. We do that all the time.

>> Merle Vaughn: I know, right? This is just a formal B's session. So let me just tell the folks a little bit about you. I don't, I don't go into great detail because I'll, you know, there's Google to do that, but, just to do some level setting. Let me tell the folks a little bit about you. John, is, a lawyer who received his law degree from USC law school and attended Pomona College undergrad. John was at Reed Smith as a lawyer for 22 plus years. He was the managing partner of the LA office for over four years, was on the executive, committee for over two years, was a corporate and securities partner for 19 years, and then I, think, fell in love with diversity, and became the chief diversity officer, which he did for the last six years, of his tenure at Reed Smith before retiring, and is now, retired from the practice, but was brought out of retirement by our alma mater, USC, to be the interim head of alumni relations. what did I miss, John?

>> John Eno: So, as soon as I retired, I launched my own, DeI consulting and speaking and training and coaching firm. and you can find it@Johnno.com but, yeah, that was all my intention, to be pretty busy doing my de night work, but got, pulled into USC. But as soon as I finished up this, gig with USC, I tend to go right back to doing the DNI work.

>> Merle Vaughn: Okay, well, as an alumni, we appreciate you, John, and we appreciate your willingness to fight on, even in retirement.

>> John Eno: You know, at the same time, I'm happy going to have an impact on the future of USC and the USC alumni and bringing that Dei experience and, lens to things, I think it's really had a big impact as we look forward.

>> Speaker A: Cool.


How did you decide to become a lawyer and who helped you along the way

>> Merle Vaughn: So, for anybody who has listened to this podcast, one of the things that I like to start with is give you an opportunity to kind of tell your story, talk a little bit about your journey, particularly to the extent that you're willing to do so share with us, like who was influential, as you, in your formative years. How did you, decide to become a lawyer, and kind of who helped you along the way, whether it was family or teachers or something like that? If you don't mind kind of just taking us back, John, and helping and bringing us forward.

>> John Eno: Sure. Happy to. I'm going to jump all over the place here, but, at least just in terms of how I got here, you know, we talk about who's a big influence. I think a big influence for me was, my dad, my dad was a CPA, and in fact, he was the first japanese american CPA California, and perhaps, really in the entire United States.

>> Merle Vaughn: wow.

>> John Eno: Yeah, a little bit of background on that. So, you know, he was, ah, he was a bookkeeper, he working here in Los Angeles, working, the produce markets, and flour markets and the like. But, you know, world War two broke out and they forced all the Japanese Americans to leave the west coast. most of them, you know, 120,000 ended up having to go to these concentration camps for prisons. but he was fortunate that he went back to, Cincinnati because his brother in law was, in medical school there at the University of Cincinnati. So if, you had, if you had a destination, a guarantor, so to speak, that was off the west coast, you could go as long as you applied in advance. So he went to Cincinnati, and during World War two, he got a job working for a jewish gentleman, who was a CPA named Norman Gentleson, who, took him under his wing, and, he got a CPA. It was very tough to get a cPA, but he got a CPA in Ohio. So then when the war ended, the families were able to come back to California, so he came back to la.

>> Speaker A: Ah.

>> John Eno: And because there was reciprocal licensing, he got a CPA license, like, in 19 California in 1946. So, as I say, became the first japanese american CPA, and in 44, it probably m made it one of the first japanese american CPAs in the United States. but I tell its story because it's a big impact on me, is in terms of the value of hard work and the value of, you know, battling through adversity. because when he was in Cincinnati, he lived, you know, with his brother in law and their family, and he had his family, and he said that there were four families living in a, two bedroom house. and so, you know, just. There was obviously cramped conditions. And so he was studying for the CPA exam, but he said the only time he could study for the exam was between midnight and 05:00 a.m. When the house was quiet.

>> Speaker A: Wow.

>> John Eno: so he said he would get up in the morning, go to work, come back, have, dinner with the family, and go to sleep, and then wake up at midnight to do his study. So, you know, talk about inspiration for me, you know, during terms of working hard and those kind of things, it's just. It's just, I remember I was studying for the bar, and, we were very fortunate because by that point, you know, we had a swimming pool in our house. Whatever. June, whenever you're studying for the bar, and I'm sitting out there by assuming, drinking a coors light, and I kind of getting sleepy, and my dad comes out and he says, you know, hey, how's it going? How's it staying for the bar going? I was like, oh, it's good. I'm just getting kind of, you know, hard to get motivated. And then he told me his story about taking the CPA exam in Cincinnati, and I went back inside, and I never studied outside again. I said, what's the library? Every single day after that, you know, it was a big inspiration. but, you know, lots in terms. Lots in terms of me growing up, and then we can get into it in a bit.


Larry Mar is a Japanese American who attended Harvard for boys

But, just for me, you know, just finding my identity I think was a big, a big, big thing growing up.

>> Merle Vaughn: And how did you do? You know, because I think it's interesting, you know, you know, your, your father and it sounds like your parents, you know, at least your father came from humble beginnings and, you know, became a professional and worked as his way up and all that. And you had a swimming pool and actually attended Harvard, school for boys, which is a big deal. My daughter went to Harvard Westlake. I mean, so when you talk about finding your identity, what was that like being at Harvard school for boys and finding your identity, as a Japanese American?

>> John Eno: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, our parents were kids of immigrants. my grandparents came over just before the turn of the century on both my mom and my dad's side. So both my mom, my dad grew up like within a, ah, couple blocks of USC in stone store from the coliseum. And so I still remember that. But, they both, graduated from manual arts high school, which is right by, ah, uSc. but the story of my brothers, like that two older brothers, and they tell us, well, you could tell how well dad was doing by the types of summer vacations we had. So my oldest brother said our big summer vacation was to go to Newport beach. We went to Newport beach, or maybe we would go to Big Bear. That was our second vacation, he said. And your second brother, my brother's tea, when he said, you know, they got to go to Lake Tahoe, you know, or mammoth or Lake Tahoe, that was their summer vacation. Summer vacation. John went to. When you, when you were growing, your summer vacation was. You went to Europe. Oh, right. So it's like, yeah, just kind of my dad had this business, kind of became more successful, so I was fortunate. So, like you mentioned, and it wasn't easy to get into Harvard school at the time. You know, my mom was really active in the church, the episcopal church. And so, she staying in the choir and all those kind of things. So I, don't know if you know, but Harvard was affiliated with the episcopal church.

>> Merle Vaughn: Yeah, there's still a chapel there.

>> John Eno: Yeah, yes, St. Cyril's chapel. So when, when I was, you know, in grammar school, when they can apply, she kind of tried to pull all the strings she could to, get us, to get me into Harvard. At the time we were living in Madera heights. And if you know, Larry, for those of you who know, la, near Westchester, you know, grew up, was, born Crenshaw, but then kind of moved to the suburbs. So to speak. They say we wouldn't move to Adair Heights, but commuting, from Madeira Heights to North Hollywood, that was. That was a long trek when I first got in. But then, you know, as I say again, my dad was doing well, so he was able to move closer. But I'll tell you, like you said, finding your identity. So, when I was growing up, it's, you know, elementary school and all the rest, you know, we lived in Ladera Heights, which, you know, is pretty. Pretty diverse neighborhood. And so my friends on our street were either mostly white and a couple of Asians, back then. And then I went to Harvard in 7th grade, and most of the folks, there were only a handful of people of color. I mean, there was probably, like, two or three other Asians and, you know, couple of black, African Americans, and I can't even remember how many. Fatty, Latino, Latinx. but the thing for me, I said when growing up was that all of a sudden changed when we started thinking about dating. You start thinking about, you know, I think about girls, right? And so before was, you know, I was, you know, kind of in the. In crowd, and all of a sudden, I go to these parties, and back then, it was all boys school. So, you know, we didn't have girls in our class, but we had things with, you know, Marlboro or Westlake and things like that. And I don't know, I just didn't. Didn't feel comfortable, right? Just didn't feel like, you know, part of it, you know, just. Whereas before, I was. So I probably spent the next, I don't know, ten years of my life, just maybe ten years a little longer, five or six years, just, again, trying to discover who I was and my identity. And so I was really, kind of shifted completely by the time I got to about 10th, 10th, 11th grade to becoming all my friends were asian American. and I mean, not at Harvard, because there weren't a whole lot of us, but from m other places. so that was my whole social circle. And then it was interesting, then when I get back to, you know, the Harvard west lake. No, it wasn't Harvard Westlake. It was just Harvard school. All my friends were either asian, black, or hispanic. Just changed from 7th grade to, say, 10th, 11th grade. So I said, oh, it's kind of struggle to understand, who I am, who you are. And I think it finally came to a head because I went to college, and in my junior year, by this point, I would say I was, like, super asian, right? You know, that was, that was one of my friends were, you know, I don't know if you remember. It's like, you know, where had, I had a comb in my back pocket, you know, wearing the bell bottoms, all kind of stuff, the feathered hair kind of thing. And, and then in my junior year, I went to Japan and I was kind of going to, going to find my roots and all that. I, went back there, and in that year, it was pretty clear I understood that I really wasn't, really wasn't japanese. I was american. and I ended up ending up working in, working over there for a couple years. And that's what I really kind of, you know, I got, I got, this was when I was working my prior firm, worked in the Tokyo office for a couple years, and at the end of my time, they said, hey, would you consider staying here and living in Japan? but you could be the managing partner of the office. And I ended up thinking along the hardbound and turned them down. There's a number of reasons why I turned them down, but more than anything, because I said, you know what? I don't want to spend the rest of my life here. Because at the end of the day, I'm not japanese, I'm american, and I really want to go back to America. Anyways, they ended up going back to, going back to LA and, end up settling there.

>> Speaker A: Right.

>> Merle Vaughn: And, you know, that's interesting. It's kind of similar to, and I haven't had that, that true identity experience because I've, I've never spent time in Africa. I've been to North Africa. But, when people, you know, ask how I identify, I identify as black. because it's, you know, the african american part of it is, you know, it's like I either either call me american or if you have to call me black, you know, because I don't know. I mean, I've done, the, tests, you know, the DNA test to try to figure out what, you know, what are all I mix up with. And there's so much that I'm mixed up with, you know? But, you know, it's interesting to hear you say that from that perspective because that, that really resonates with me.

>> John Eno: Yeah, no, absolutely. And, yeah, we still continue to grow, but I just always kind of felt like, well, here's, here's another. Here's going to kind of early in my career, but, when I graduated law school and I got, m. That was the first job out of actually my first job was a clerkship. My first, legal law practice law firm was with Gibson Dunn. And, when I remember preparing for the month leading up to my first day of work, and I had that in my mind that I couldn't be asian American anymore. I have to assimilate, have to become white. And so I remember, like, I went shopping, and I bought all this clothes I never had before. Like, you know, Brooks. No, Brooks brothers, you know, rough Lauren, you know, shirts, you know, this polo shirts or the button down shirts, you know, penny loafers, right.


The podcast is about finding your identity, staying true to your authenticity

You know, khaki pants. I don't own any of that kind of clothes. Right.

>> Speaker A: And.

>> John Eno: But I was like, I just had my mind that, you know, I have to go to this white, you know, law firm and become white. And so that's why, you know, it's in a quickly feel like, oh, no, you know, I understand who you are. But I said, even starting with a law firm, you know, this was, what, 35 years ago or more, certain law firm back then, it felt like, oh, no, I had to assimilate. I couldn't be myself.

>> Merle Vaughn: Interesting. And so how long? Because, you know, that just gets us to the, you know, to delve right into what this podcast is about, which is finding your identity, you know, staying true to your authenticity, and, you know, all, all the while, you know, being productive and successful.


John Eno says he transformed when he took on DNI role

And so at what point did it occur to you that you didn't have to be someone that you're not, you know, that you can just be John Eno?

>> John Eno: Well, you know, it's so funny because, I was talking to my, former partner, Janet Kwan, when I retired, and they had a little, you know, get together, and she pulled me aside and she said, you know, john, she goes, I just noticed there's a big change. And you just kind of, like, you really grew up. And that wasn't the worst. You really transformed when you took this d and I role, you know, so I said, you know, it was, it was something I got, you know, always struggled, with. And that, you know, finally getting into that role is when I actually could, you know, truly be myself and express myself in terms of. In all the things I thought and all the things that were so important to me. and as I talk about it now, it's like, yeah, you know, it took a long time because when I first started working again, you know, I don't think I was so much conscious in terms of who I was. I just wanted to do well. So I just worked.

>> Speaker A: I just remember.

>> John Eno: So, we started. And I started in 88. And 88 was, Ah, there was, there was a stock market crash in October that year, and I wanted to do corporate work, which I ended up doing. But I remember basically, you know, the firm telling us in our first year class, like, you know, look to your left, look to your right, and by the end of the year, two of you will be gone.

>> Merle Vaughn: Wow.

>> John Eno: And so that was kind of the environment we started. So I just said, look, I may not be as smart as all these people, but gosh darn, you know, they weren't. No one's going to outwork me, right? So I got to think this attitude, I just wanted to prove that I could work really hard.

>> Speaker A: Right.

>> John Eno: but at the end of the day, you know, succeeding in a law firm is not just about putting your billable hours in your position. There's a lot more than that. Right. And so, you know, yeah, I put in the hours, put my head down, but you got to also spend a lot of time developing those relationships and cultivating, you know, those mentor relationships and all those kind of things like that, which, you know, in hindsight, that's why at the end of the day, I love doing the DNI work is of all the things that we learned growing up, that, you know, we could help people not, not make those same mistakes.

>> Speaker A: So go ahead.


When did you really find out who you are?

>> John Eno: No, I was going to say that, when you can answer the question in terms of when did you really find out who you are? So, you know, so when I, when I first started off, I was doing work, in Newport beach. So a great group, great group of folks there did a lot of fun work. and as I mentioned, after, five years or so, I went to, went to work in the Tokyo office again, trying to find myself and who, you know, maybe that was me understanding ultimately I wasn't japanese.

>> Speaker A: Ah.

>> John Eno: But then coming back and then still doing some, you know, Japan related work, international related work, you think about, it's like, why does the asian guy have to do the asian work? Right, right. You stereotype yourself into that kind of work. So, no, you could be a great corporate lawyer, you could be a great venture capital lawyer, things like that. So that's why I said, struggling to, you know, find exactly what you do. You want to do what you're going to do well, but at the same time, you don't want to do something that your stereotypes like, oh, you're an asian guy, you should go into IP.

>> Speaker A: Right?

>> Merle Vaughn: It's like, right. Why, right, right.

>> John Eno: Why is that? Right. So you can have a great, you know, asian trial lawyer. Great asian, you know, ah, corporate private equity lawyer. So anyways, that's why I said it's always kind of a struggle to ultimately find yourself and feel that confidence that you could, you know, be the best you could be.

>> Merle Vaughn: Oh, so the stereotype, it does sound like, you represented or dealt with stereotypes, but it almost sounds like you self selected that, like you, you chose to adopt, you know, fit the stereotype and then try to assimilate. I mean, is that accurate or. It doesn't sound like. It sounds like something you chose.

>> John Eno: Yeah, I think that's right. On the one hand, this is what, if you know what you want to do, you should do it. and for me, just kind of finding that what was it that was going to, really set me apart.


John Preet started working with chinese clients before joining Reed Smith

So here back in, this is back in, Oh, boy. Probably right around the time I joined Reed Smith. So like 98, 99, 2000, somewhere in there. it was just at the time that China was starting to become a dominant player in the global economy. and the firm I was by that time, before joining Reed Smith, had just started this affiliation with his firm in China. So we started doing some things, and because of that, I got a referral to do some work for or a chinese company that was coming here who's now called TCL. You might seen their tvs and things like that. They're a really big company, but back then they were just kind of getting started. So I started doing some work with them. But, you know, I get to read Smith and they're saying, oh, you know, you have, this is before we had China offices, before we had, offices in Hong Kong and all those kind of things. But I had these chinese clients. So I say, oh, well, well, you know, John. Yeah, you're, you're the Asia expert, right? So I, I gave this presentation to the, you know, to the board and executive committee on China and all this kind of stuff like this. It's like, it just kind of, you know, the shoe fit and so, okay, right. I knew with Reed Smith, you know, fairly new at that point, one or two years in. So it's like, how do I make a name for himself? So, okay. That, that kind of works because if you look around, there are only probably about, I don't know, six or seven asian partners at the time at Preet Smith.

>> Speaker A: So.

>> John Eno: Okay.

>> Speaker A: Yeah.

>> John Eno: John, John. my calling car back then was I was the California corporal lawyer. I wanted people to know right away that I was the expert on California law. You need to ask California law for you. Folks back in Pittsburgh or New York called John. That's one thing I wanted to do. But I also said, oh, you want to know something about Asia? Yeah, I could tell you something about Asia. You want to, if the shoe fits, you want to run with it, because at the end of the day, you want to get business. You want to have the name for yourself.

>> Speaker A: Right?

>> Merle Vaughn: And did you find. So, you know, I, I agree that, that, you know, putting your head down. I mean, too often people of color just do half of what you said, which was. Yeah, which is work really, really hard, keep your head down, stay, you know, stay out of trouble, don't call, attention to yourself and just, just do the work. And then you do that for your. They do that for years. And then they find that, you know, they weren't building relationships. And it turns out that, you know, if you don't have relationships, you really don't have much of anything, no matter how hard you work. do you know, can you talk to us about that and talk about.


Did you build the relationships that you needed to be successful and get business

Because I'm still like, like intrigued by this idea of assimilation. Did you, did you feel like you, you know, the fact that you were savvy enough to think, oh, I have to assimilate, which I kind of find sad, but, that you, that you did that, did that help you, you know, build, the relationships that you needed to be successful and to get business to make part?

>> John Eno: Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I'll tell you, and it's, I know where this is API heritage month.

>> Merle Vaughn: yes.

>> John Eno: You know, I talk a lot about this, especially amongst API, lawyers, you know. So agents are taught, you know, and I'll tell you the most about that. But Asians are taught by their parents, work hard, you know, get good grades, go to a good school. School and don't get in trouble and everything's going to be great.

>> Speaker A: Right?

>> John Eno: And so this is probably going back ten years ago when I was a managing, partner, or maybe I was a practical, I can't remember. I've had a lot of roles. But, so there was asian, american woman, senior associate. I mean, she had unbelievable numbers. So working really hard like her, what we call managed manner, responsible credit. She was like over $2 million. It was just, you know, unbelievable. so she was up, she was up for partner and she didn't make it. And she came to me, she was so upset. She was, I can't believe I didn't make partner you know, I did everything you're supposed to do. And so the first thing I said is that, well, you know, you do a lot of work for this, for this one client. Yeah, I can see your credit. You do a lot of work with someone. Client. Yeah, I handle all these cases for, you know. Okay, great. Now, did the relationship partner, for that. For that client, did he go to bat for you with the executive committee or go to bat with you with its senior management team? And she said, I don't know. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is your, this. If that person's not in the. In the face of the. Well, you know, that that's going to be a real problem because you want people that are going to stand up for you. So I guess she grew up, you know, under the assumption, which is, you know, kind of stereotypically asian parents work hard. So, in other words, put in the hours, get your billable hours in, get good reviews, and everyone's going to notice you, and then based on that, you're going to get promoted. Well, that's not how it works in a little offer. It's not just about that. You got to have who's going to stand up or even the room, who's going to be lobbying for you when there's, you know, 15 other great candidates, what's going to distinguish you? So you got to develop those, those relationships. So, to her credit, the next year, she was working every angle, right? And we actually have this, have this whole template, you know, in terms of promotion, you know, roadmap to promotion that used to give away to all the diverse, all the people, diverse lawyers and women say, here's, here's what you need to do. You haven't do it all. You have to do all of them. These are all things you need to do. But she was, she worked for executive committee person. She had all these different partners that were speaking up there. She was regularly checking in with her practice group leader and the senior management team in terms of her prospects going back from ten months before the partnership decision were made, all the way to the point where, our head of, the head of legal personnel who was in charge of promotions, she finally called me. She said, you know, so and so is calling me, like, every week or every month with updates on her, on her statistics and all the kids. She goes, she tell her she's actually just back off. She's. She's. We got it. We got it. She's hurting herself by being too much in front of us at this point. So I said, so anyway, she, she made it. She's had a great career. But, you know, it just was one of those things that, you know, yeah, you need to build those relationships and it's not necessarily going to be with people that look like you. It's got to be with people that, you know, are in positions of power that are going to be able to speak up for you.


How do people of color build relationships in today's fast-paced world

>> Merle Vaughn: Let me ask you this, and I've been, I've been thinking about this especially because, you know, we just had, the women's mind, you know, but, and I've been thinking about these things and we always talk, talk about, you know, mentors and sponsors and, and we're always, you know, trying to explain and help people of color or people who are, you know, other, for lack of a better way of putting it, understand what they need to do in order to be successful. And you just did a really good job of explaining that. But I'm wondering, how do non people of color know this? You know, why is it so, so I guess my question is, do they actually know it? Is it somehow innate, which I find, hard to believe, or is it that the people who you need to have these relationships with are automatically gravitating to them?

>> John Eno: Yeah, well, that's, that's a big part of bias. Right. familiarity, and the, like, you know, the obvious first point is that people that grew up, you know, not privileged, you know, didn't have role models that can tell them what to do or, you know, because, you know, like we always say, if you grew up in a country club, you kind of know, you know, how to, how to you know, how to hold yourself up and kind of, you know, build up some of those relationships and you have those relationships built in, you know, through your networking or your family and all the rest. But, you know, so many people that didn't come from a privileged background don't have that. So, you know, they have to learn how to, how to do that on their own. And when you have this, you know, this bias that says that people will tend to gravitate towards the people that look like them, then it's harder for people like people of color that don't necessarily have that to build those relationships. So, you know, it's definitely a learned skill. I think that people that come from predominantly, communities of color, that they haven't had that opportunity growing up to interact with folks that don't look like them. They're the ones that are having, trouble establishing those relationships because it doesn't come naturally, because the people that don't look like them, they may not necessarily, reach out to them as much as others. And if you haven't had that opportunity to learn how to cross. Cross over, so to speak, and develop relationships for people that don't look like you, and you have a harder time. So, you know, a big part of what we always did at the law firm is how do we build up some of these relationships if they're not going to happen naturally? And how can we make it, you know, not forced, but, organic, so that people really do, build up these relationships. And for the people of privilege, so to speak, how do you make sure you're intentional to reach out to people and find those areas of common connection, areas where you can help people? But you might say, well, when I was growing up, we did this. Well, that's not the same experience as the other person. But how do you find these areas of commonality where you say, okay, we both went through this, and here's some advice.

>> Merle Vaughn: And so I guess some people might say, and we're just calling it, you know, from, a place of privilege, what's in it for them?

>> Speaker A: Yeah, I'm asking the question, what's going on?

>> John Eno: Yeah, I get it. That's why. That's why, you know, the work we would do, DNI work. So a lot of the work that, you know, as opposed to historically DNI programs were just like, put the affinity groups or the ergs, wherever you want to call them, put them in a corner and say, okay, here you folks, go. Have your little meetings, go have your little parties and your mentoring. Here's some money. Oh, and you want to go to your conference. Yeah, here's some money, and go do that. it's completely not integrated with the rest of the firm. And so, so much of what we're trying to do is how to integrate the majority of the firm with our de knight program. And that's getting folks to see the value of developing relationships and developing and pulling up, folks, because it's still not easy, because at the end of the day, we still have people that don't see the value of diversity. They don't see the value of having a diverse team, despite the fact that clients are saying it all the time. You have a lot of people within the law firm that, just wouldn't participate. So we would have something we, call the inclusive leadership program. And that was designed not for the people or people or the diverse folks. That was designed for the other folks to learn how to become more inclusive and more inclusive leaders and develop the tools to reach out to find the areas of interest and then, like you say, understand what the value is to people for that. So, as I said, purely economic. You want to be completely cynical about it all. If the clients are demanding more diversity on their teams than you as a leader of that client team, you've got to find more diversity. if you want to bring in more business. That's just the facts. That's very cynical. But I would say that. I would say that the folks. So there, there was this guy, I remember we had to remember what the setting was, but, he called me up or we were talking and he said, you know, he's a, senior white guy, I guess I'd say. But he had joined, laterally from in house. And he said, you know, John, there's always talk about, you know, wanting to see more diversity and all that. He goes, but I can tell you, as a white male, I have been the victim of this. You know, it's kind of like what we're seeing now with the pushback on affirmative action. I've been the victim. I've been a victim of the adversity programs. I have been passed over for promotion. I had been passed over for, leadership opportunities because it seemed to always go to the, diverse folks, right? No, he said that. He said. And so now he's in the law firm now. So he goes, so, you know, when you tell me it's important to, you know, to support diversity, because I have a hard time with that. And I said, I just went straight to the heart of the matter here, okay?

>> Speaker A: You're leading.

>> John Eno: You're leading this relationship, this client, right? Yes. I go, that client wants more diversity on their team, right? And said, yeah, it's like, oh, so you're looking at it as, you know, as a pie that, you know, you can't grow the pie, right? it's a zero sum game. It's everyone that wins. Someone says that lose. But I'm telling you right now, if you embrace this diversity, you're going to get more work from this client, and the pie is going to be bigger for you as well as the people that you bring.

>> Speaker A: That's.

>> John Eno: That's not a zero sum game. And I remember her, his client, and she's still a good friend of mine. She's another. Another law firm I still see her from time to time, but she would make that point over and over again, right. And say, you know, you want more work. And I told them, you want more credits and more compensation, make sure you bring in more diversity. So, you know, at least in his case, you know, despite whatever he had felt going in, you know, he was convinced that it made sense to support diversity.


Lindsay: Asian Pacific heritage month focuses on busting model minority myth

>> Merle Vaughn: So I have a couple of questions. One is, I want to get to the whole current dei attack on Dei. But before that, because this is AIp heritage month, there clearly have been a lot of attacks, on asian folks. There was the lawsuit where I felt like the asian plaintiffs just got used. but, you know, and then there's a whole, I guess some people would call myth about, you know, the model asian, you know. Can you talk to us a little bit about some of that?

>> John Eno: Yeah, it's a good point because actually I am, going to be speaking to major, Lindsay through their global, group, as part of asian, Asian Pacific heritage month on busting the model minority myth. because, you know, there's, there's so much to it here. but, you know, one of the things that, you know, if you continue to hold, up Asians as the model minority, you know, there's a lot, you know, I tell the folks about when the Harvard North Carolina cases, they go, some folks within the asian american community feel like that was a win. On the other hand, the community's divided. And what I would say is that, okay, you may have gained acceptance into Ivy League schools more, but wait till you get to the workplace, because when you graduate from there, it's not so easy. Statistics after statistics will show the lack of representation in senior leadership of Asian Americans. And so I said, okay, if you say you don't need help getting into college, well, wait till you get to the workplace. And that's going to be more real, when it's not just getting good grades and getting good SAT scores. So there's a lot more to that in the corporate world. That's the importance of, de and I programs.


Asian Americans need to be better allies and supporters of each other

But you talk about the asian model minority myth. you know, one of the things that, you know, I like to say and talk about a lot, on this topic is that Asian Americans themselves have to be better allies and supporters of each other. And it's interesting that, that Asian Americans don't support each other like other communities. I frankly think that, the black and the Latinx hispanic communities do a better job of supporting each other. And you ask, like, why is that? Why is it the Asian Americans do it, don't do it. Part of it's cultural. It's cultural because, you know, we're told that, you know, kind of keep your head down and don't make waves. Right? The other thing is culture, I think, is that, Asian Americans are, you know, been driven so hard by their parents, that stereotypical tiger mom, right? It's driving their kids. And I believe that asian american leaders, we do ourselves, our proteges, a disservice because we're harder on them than, say, their non asian counterparts, because we have this, you know, oh, I expect even more from you. Wait a second. Why are you. Why are you holding up even higher standards? Right? You got to support these people like you support everyone else. But the other part is, it's the model minority myth because people say, well, I don't need to help them out because they're doing just fine. They're hard workers. They're more simulated, so we don't have to help out Asian Americans. Well, that's not true. That plane doesn't happen. And I can tell you from my work, the law firm, my last year there, last full year there, the asian american associates were the second lowest in terms of utilization amongst the various diverse groups. And so you all think that, oh, they're just hard workers. They need as help as any other group. So let's not buy into this model minority myth of that and say, let's treat them the same, that they need as much help as anyone else. And in fact, by thinking they are the model M minority, that ends up harming them more because I'm not getting the same support. And I myself was guilty of that. One of the things when I became, chief diversity officer, you know, that's. This. Is this my, you know, come to Jesus moment? I said, I said, when I first came in for the first year, two years, I was very conscious that as an Asian American in the role, I was the first person as chief diversity officer that wasn't black. And even when our, CEO, Sandy Thomas asked me to do the role, I go, Sandy, I'd love to do the role, but, you know, the person has always been black, and I don't know if I'm the right person for it. And he said, well, you know, let me check around. So we checked with folks, you know, like, like Scott Bolden and Glenn Mahone, all the senior folks, you know, within the firm. He goes, no, John, you're going to be fine because you have so much respect. You know, they respect you. But at the same time, I was still conscious that I wasn't, you know, wasn't black. And so when I. When it started in the role, I spent so much time, you know, I wanted to make sure that people understood that, look, I don't, you know, I have not seen or experienced the black experience and not lived. Lived through that, you know, but I said, I can tell you I experienced racism. I can tell you that I've, seen, you know, stereotypes. being Asian American has talked about things like my dad went through. but, you know, I just have to prove to you that, you know, I want to be supportive. So as a result, I was worried about showing favoritism to say, the asian american associates, they wanted to, quote, win over the other people of color so I wouldn't be viewed as helping my own. Helping my own. And that was a mistake. I admit this, you know, by helping and supporting the black and the LGBT and the age. I mean, the Hispanic, associates or attorneys, it didn't mean I had to ignore the Asian Americans. But I think I did it because, again, I think I suffered from this model minority myth that they were going to be okay.

>> Speaker A: Right?

>> John Eno: So it's so important to people to recognize that and say, we got to treat, you know, folks APIs, you know, like any. Any other group, because they need support, too.

>> Speaker A: Well.

>> Merle Vaughn: And, you know, that. You, know, I appreciate that you had that. That come to Jesus moment, but I can tell you that, you know, you're. You're not alone. I think there are plenty. Plenty of other folks of color, black or whatever, who are in. Who get to positions, and then they're afraid to advocate for people who look like them, because they don't. For the same reasons. Right. They don't want to. Want anybody to think that they're playing favorite, which, you know, is so interesting because the whole problem of, you know, exists because none. People of color, non diverse people, not, you know, the majority who are in control, don't care. They do it every day.

>> John Eno: That's why we have the problem.

>> Merle Vaughn: You know, it's like nobody's saying, you know, and one other thing about this. And I think about this a lot. Like, you know, when I work with folks, I'll, you know, work on deals and. And I'll bring in maybe, you know, two black women with me, you know, on one deal. And so we turn on the video, and there's these three black women from MLA, and then on the other side, on, all the other boxes on the client side or whatever. It's maybe all white people. And it's. I. My initial thought is, I wonder what they're thinking. You, know, I wonder how this looks to them. I wonder if they think we're not qualified still. I still have that, you know, it's bleeding because I'm like, okay, that's ridiculous. And you know what? I don't care. That's. That's a them problem, not a me problem. Right.

>> Speaker A: But,

>> Merle Vaughn: But because we are qualified, and we, you know, and all that. And. But think about the other side of that video. All white. Do you think they're thinking, you know?

>> John Eno: Right.

>> Merle Vaughn: Do they log on and think, oh, we have all white people. I wonder what. What they're gonna think. No, no.


If I promote another white person, it's gonna be viewed negatively

>> John Eno: Well, to the credit. Well, there are some that think that, but, yeah, you're right. They don't make it, you know, right away say, oh, if I promote another white person, it's gonna be viewed negatively. But if we said, oh, I want. I promote this person of color that looks like me, like, oh, well, that's just, you know, nepotism. That's just favoritism.

>> Merle Vaughn: Right. Yeah, that's. That's Dei, which apparently these days stands for didn't earn it. Have you seen that?

>> John Eno: Oh, my God.

>> Speaker A: No.

>> John Eno: That's horrible.

>> Merle Vaughn: There's t shirts and mugs and all kind of things being. Being sold these days, where it says, dei equals didn't earn.

>> John Eno: that's just. Yeah, I'll tell you a couple. Just a couple of other things that I think people support. are hesitant to pull each other up again. Asians, but others, if you're in a position of power, maybe this is why I want people to start thinking differently. Start thinking differently. It's like you, if I brought up someone that's asian, like, if my protege is an asian. Right. And is it because I don't want people to look at me as asian. I want to simply. I want people to look at me as, like, a great leader. So I'm hesitant to do that. Well, that's obviously, you know, not good. Right. But you think about, oh, I want to view this. View this white as part of. Kind of the in team. I don't want to hold out another person. And the other part, the other one is, it's kind of like a check the box concept. It's like, okay, I got the, asian card, right? I'm holding the asian card right now on this board. Or whatever. And so I'm not going to bring another Asian up because I hold that box, I hold that seat, you know, so I can't bring another person in. It's like, well, that's like, if that's the same thing for, like, women on boards. If you said you hold the women position, we know you need four or five for parity to have true diversity.

>> Merle Vaughn: Right.

>> John Eno: But if you said, oh, I don't want to bring another one, because I hold, that's. That's way backwards thing. The kind of final, exact.

>> Speaker A: Yeah.

>> John Eno: The final point, I would say, is that I think there's a bit of guilt here, too, because if you recognize that you have the imposter syndrome, I think at the end of day, so many people, you know, diverse folks just have that imposter syndrome. They feel like, I don't deserve to be here, I feel guilty to be here. Therefore, I'm not going to pull somebody up.

>> Merle Vaughn: That's.

>> John Eno: We got to not think like that either.

>> Speaker A: You, got to.

>> John Eno: Can overcome that. We all know we need to come syndrome. But how it relates to supporting and pulling and supporting others, pulling each other up, no, we've got to get over that real quick.

>> Speaker A: Right.

>> Merle Vaughn: Well, isn't that what all these attacks are meant to do, is to keep. Keep people in, try to keep them in their place, keep people in that syndrome. You know, anytime you start telling people, well, dei means didn't earn it, you know, all these, these are all things to try to solidify that lack of confidence and, you know, the lack of, you know, to think that you don't. You're not qualified or you're not, that you don't. You don't deserve, equal equity. You know, it's like if, you know, I don't care what you call you, get rid of the term affirmative action, get rid of the term dei, get rid of all those terms.

>> John Eno: I don't care.

>> Merle Vaughn: Like you said, you're not japanese. You're american. You know, I'm not african american. I'm american. Get rid of all of that. And let's just treat everyone equitably. And we wouldn't, you know, but that's not what, what this is meant to do, what these attacks are meant to do. And until we get there, we have to continue, to try to help people, give people help. And the other thing is, anybody who says that they're successful, anybody who is successful and who says they did not get any help to get there is delusional. Right? I don't care what race you are, what ethnicity, what, ah, gender, any of that, if you actually think you are making it or have made it without any help, you're fooling yourself.

>> John Eno: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you say the person that's not diverse, that got all these promotions or got this job, right. It's like you don't tell me it wasn't, you know, all on your own. Right. Tell me there wasn't some action, call it affirmative or whatever you want to call it, that got you.

>> Merle Vaughn: Exactly. And it's all affirmative. Any, anytime you have.

>> John Eno: It's intentional.

>> Merle Vaughn: It's affirmative.

>> John Eno: It's intentional. Intentional action.

>> Merle Vaughn: Right, exactly.

>> John Eno: I'll tell you that, you know, the folks that are attacking de and I and the like, they are, they're a well oiled machine. I mean, they're spilling billions of dollars. You know, these folks, you know, Edward Bloom and all these, well organized and that just like you say, they want us to feel that we don't deserve it, that we, you know, we didn't deserve it. Right. And if we buy into that, then we're letting them win.

>> Merle Vaughn: Exactly.

>> John Eno: We got here because we, you know, all the things that we do deserve it.


Don't let negativity turn your mind. Right. Don't let that. Turn your mind

So don't let. Don't let that. Let them turn your. Turn your mind. Right.

>> Merle Vaughn: Right. And don't lose focus. Right.


You've been very intentional and very successful. And you're raising two kids

And I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you. I didn't know your, you know, all your story, which is why I love doing this podcast, because I learned so much about people and especially my friends. and I, you know, but you did find that intention, and that's how we met, right around that, and you stayed focused on it, and you've been very intentional and very successful. and, you know, I. And you're raising two kids, you know, who are apparently doing very well at USC. Fight on. and so I wanted you to.


You can't force your career; the universe presents itself

And we're at the end of this, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to give some words of encouragement or advice to folks, particularly folks who look like you, but not just folks who look like you, and understanding that Asians are not a monolith. Right. but, you know, just some encouragement and words of advice to folks about the struggles that they may face, but the ability to overcome them.

>> Speaker A: Yeah.

>> John Eno: So I've learned a lot, over the course of my career, is that, you can't force your career. You want to make sure that you're always enjoying what you do. You're pushing yourself as hard as you can to be the best and develop these relationships. And sometimes that means being uncomfortable. We sometimes have to push ourselves harder than we're willing to push ourselves. but at the end of the day, I also believe that what you preconceived thought was success, may not necessarily be what it turns out to be. And you can be very successful in whatever areas you do that you had no idea that you were leading down that path. When I graduated in law school, there was no such thing as chief diversity officer. And I got asked to, step into that role after, what, almost, almost 2020, some 25, 26 years after being a lawyer. But it's something that, present itself to me and I said, the universe presented itself to you and you find these areas and flourish. And not to say that I know I wasn't successful before because I really enjoyed. So I guess the same thing when I was gotten a, asked to do management, I really enjoyed being in management. and so that was something that I hadn't thought about going into law school. It's the same thing I say about taking this role at USC. I was like, this is not what I wanted to do in retirement. I wanted to do my b and a consulting and coaching and all that kind of stuff. But I just kind of said, you know, why is the universe presenting this to me? There's other reason. And, it's turned out to be very, very rewarding. And so that's all. Obviously, work hard, and do everything you can. Push yourself. At the same time, don't have this predestined idea of what success is going to look like, because success comes in a lot of different shapes, a lot of different forms, and then when you finally see it, you're going to love it even more.


Merle: Remember that everybody is different and different is good

>> Merle Vaughn: Well, that's a perfect place to end, and that's wonderful advice. And, I just want to say thank you, John, for being here to b's with me today.

>> John Eno: So fun being with you too, Merle. Fight on.

>> Merle Vaughn: Fight on. Thanks to everyone for listening. And until the next episode, remember that everybody is different and different is good.

>> Speaker A: Hit it. That's what I'm talking about. Wait.

>> Merle Vaughn: Okay, now, from the beginning.

>> John Eno: We hope.

>> Merle Vaughn: You enjoyed the stories shared in today's episode of BS beyond stereotypes. Join us next time when another authentic personality unleashes their uniqueness on the world.